yellobronc
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There are many posts regarding different wheels. Can we discuss what the Pros/Cons of moving from 10 wheels to 6 wheels. Is there a benefit of flipping the hubs and running 9 x 20 wheels in a 6 configuration?
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6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
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gimpyrobb
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Well (from what I understand) the trucks came stock with 6 1100r20s. Then the government went to 10-900r20s. I like the look of duals so thats what I'll stick with. It makes the trucks not want to turn though. It also creates alot of bind with that much traction on the rears.
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Singling the truck out will result in better fuel economy (because of the larger tires), higher road speed, better off-road traction and less drag on pavement as GIMPYROBB says. David Doyle has written about single vs. dual wheel performance.
BFR
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unloaded it would do better offroad, but you would give up load carrying capacity on singled 900'syellobronc said:
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RE: Re: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
MVM articles about singles:
Dual to single conversion", Issue #79, May/June 2000
The highway deuce" , Issue #112, December 2005
MVM articles about singles:
Dual to single conversion", Issue #79, May/June 2000
The highway deuce" , Issue #112, December 2005
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RE: Re: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
Efficiency should improve as well by virtue of eliminating nearly 700# of dynamic rotating stock.
Efficiency should improve as well by virtue of eliminating nearly 700# of dynamic rotating stock.
Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
The M34 was preferred for off-road use as the single rear wheels provided better performance in mud, snow and sand. The M35 with its dual rear wheels was designed primarily for on road use and its wider, flat bed was better for carrying cargo. Eventually the M34 was phased out in favor of the M35.
Now for the rest of the story. Sometime in the '80s-'90s, the military remembered the advantages of single rear tires, and began retrofitting older vehicles and building new vehicles with "super single" rears in 12:50, 14:50, 15:50 and 16:00 tire sizes to regain the superior off and on road performance of the single rears without compromising cargo capacity.
Not completely accurate. The "Deuce" was originally made in three variants, the M34, M35 and M36. The M34 "Eager Beaver" had 11:00-20 tires all around, single rears, and a narrower bed (because of the narrower overall tire width) with wheel wells (similar to the earlier M135s, to allow for suspension travel with the taller tires). The M35 had 9:00-20s all around, dual rear wheels, and a wider, flat cargo bed. The M36 was a long wheelbase version of the M35.gimpyrobb said:
The M34 was preferred for off-road use as the single rear wheels provided better performance in mud, snow and sand. The M35 with its dual rear wheels was designed primarily for on road use and its wider, flat bed was better for carrying cargo. Eventually the M34 was phased out in favor of the M35.
Now for the rest of the story. Sometime in the '80s-'90s, the military remembered the advantages of single rear tires, and began retrofitting older vehicles and building new vehicles with "super single" rears in 12:50, 14:50, 15:50 and 16:00 tire sizes to regain the superior off and on road performance of the single rears without compromising cargo capacity.
gimpyrobb
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RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
Cool, thanks Lee!
Cool, thanks Lee!
yellobronc
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RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
This is great, many good pieces of information. It really is making me lean towards moving towards singles on my 9 x 20's until I can find larger ones near by. Right now, my duece has 6 brand new tires and 4 old ones it makes sense to go to singles. I live close to Oceano Dunes and would like to use the duece as a camping vehicle for the beach.
This is great, many good pieces of information. It really is making me lean towards moving towards singles on my 9 x 20's until I can find larger ones near by. Right now, my duece has 6 brand new tires and 4 old ones it makes sense to go to singles. I live close to Oceano Dunes and would like to use the duece as a camping vehicle for the beach.
M1075
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RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
I don't think anyone here is suggesting single 9.00x20. You should stay with duals if you are running 9.00x20s. Only go singles if you have 11x20s or go super singles if you have 14.5s or 15.5s.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting single 9.00x20. You should stay with duals if you are running 9.00x20s. Only go singles if you have 11x20s or go super singles if you have 14.5s or 15.5s.
acetomatoco
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RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
be sure to measure the advantages regarding cost..not just vanity or perceived benefits... Why not double up the front of the M35 and have 12 tires on the road...use two worn ones on the outside so you will not have increased steering effort.. lower the pressures in all of them for sand use and get better flotation... (ya, I know it looks weird, but floatation seems to confront flotation in various dictionaries)....Adding 1000$ air assisted power steeering, 500$ hubs, 700$ hardtop and 1000$ radial tires and so forth easily doubles the $3000 original cost of the truck...have fun, but try to rationalize the added benefits versus cost....unless your funds are unlimited... In the end you must realize that the trucks were designed in 1949 for use at convoy speeds on paved roads of 40 MPH and off road at 10 MPH or less and that every convoy had a fuel truck and recovery truck as part of the parade. If you are running duals...you can have 4 flat tires and keep going...with singles you are SOL with one flat..and CTIS isn't worth a crap if you have a blowout.
be sure to measure the advantages regarding cost..not just vanity or perceived benefits... Why not double up the front of the M35 and have 12 tires on the road...use two worn ones on the outside so you will not have increased steering effort.. lower the pressures in all of them for sand use and get better flotation... (ya, I know it looks weird, but floatation seems to confront flotation in various dictionaries)....Adding 1000$ air assisted power steeering, 500$ hubs, 700$ hardtop and 1000$ radial tires and so forth easily doubles the $3000 original cost of the truck...have fun, but try to rationalize the added benefits versus cost....unless your funds are unlimited... In the end you must realize that the trucks were designed in 1949 for use at convoy speeds on paved roads of 40 MPH and off road at 10 MPH or less and that every convoy had a fuel truck and recovery truck as part of the parade. If you are running duals...you can have 4 flat tires and keep going...with singles you are SOL with one flat..and CTIS isn't worth a crap if you have a blowout.
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RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
Duals have a few things to offer like an increased safety margin as there is redundancy. This may be desirable for certain vehicles like the loaded street vehicle where tire stress is high, failure may mean a crash and the lower 'gearing' is preferred. Vehicles (and convoys) in areas where service is impractical, or not available, benefit as more resources are available for multiple tire failures (granted, if you think you may need extra spares you will proably take some, unfortunately it doesn't always seem clear when leaving). Turning and wind-up issues can be managed with a rear lock-out hub. Duals can be configured with tires larger than 9.00x20's for increased mph/fuel economy.
I was under the impression that 11.00x20 duals clear but may touch when highly loaded. Can anyone elaborate?
JimK
Duals have a few things to offer like an increased safety margin as there is redundancy. This may be desirable for certain vehicles like the loaded street vehicle where tire stress is high, failure may mean a crash and the lower 'gearing' is preferred. Vehicles (and convoys) in areas where service is impractical, or not available, benefit as more resources are available for multiple tire failures (granted, if you think you may need extra spares you will proably take some, unfortunately it doesn't always seem clear when leaving). Turning and wind-up issues can be managed with a rear lock-out hub. Duals can be configured with tires larger than 9.00x20's for increased mph/fuel economy.
I was under the impression that 11.00x20 duals clear but may touch when highly loaded. Can anyone elaborate?
JimK
yellobronc
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RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
Very interesting, My thoughts are as you have noted Duals/Redundancy are always beneficial, even on a normal pickup truck but drive and steer different, then add an additional dual axle, now we hop and jump in tight turning situations. NO big deal though. Also, the loads most would be using are probably much less than they were designed for in the real world (not always, but mostly) 10,000 lbs. on highway may be for some, but many are driving dueces for the occasional landscaping run while most of the time driving them for fun.
I do question placing a new and old tire together, is it not possible to enduce an "Dragged" tire situation due to difference in OD of the tire when mounted. It seems this may be a bad Idea. When I got my duece a few months ago, it was situated with 4 new tire on the front rear axle, 2 new tires onthe front and 4 old tires on the rear axle. I assumed this was the reason this was done.
It sure seems then that singles may only be best recommended when 11 x 20 (or Larger) tires are being used, is this a good rule of thumb?
Very interesting, My thoughts are as you have noted Duals/Redundancy are always beneficial, even on a normal pickup truck but drive and steer different, then add an additional dual axle, now we hop and jump in tight turning situations. NO big deal though. Also, the loads most would be using are probably much less than they were designed for in the real world (not always, but mostly) 10,000 lbs. on highway may be for some, but many are driving dueces for the occasional landscaping run while most of the time driving them for fun.
I do question placing a new and old tire together, is it not possible to enduce an "Dragged" tire situation due to difference in OD of the tire when mounted. It seems this may be a bad Idea. When I got my duece a few months ago, it was situated with 4 new tire on the front rear axle, 2 new tires onthe front and 4 old tires on the rear axle. I assumed this was the reason this was done.
It sure seems then that singles may only be best recommended when 11 x 20 (or Larger) tires are being used, is this a good rule of thumb?
gimpyrobb
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RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
I would say yes.
I would say yes.
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Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
However, the initial production vehicles were M34 with six 11.00 - 20 tires. In fact, the earliest manuals make no reference whatsoever to the M35 (10 9.00 - 20 tires). The army policy toward the end of WWII and immediately thereafter was to use single tires. The dual rear wheels resurfaced very early in, IIRC, 1951 (the M34 began production in 1949). I have the contract info back at the house - which I'll see again one of these days.
Best wishes,
David
Nah Bruce, that was Bjorn - but I'll take the mistake as a compliment!BKubu said:
However, the initial production vehicles were M34 with six 11.00 - 20 tires. In fact, the earliest manuals make no reference whatsoever to the M35 (10 9.00 - 20 tires). The army policy toward the end of WWII and immediately thereafter was to use single tires. The dual rear wheels resurfaced very early in, IIRC, 1951 (the M34 began production in 1949). I have the contract info back at the house - which I'll see again one of these days.
Best wishes,
David
RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
You can, and a few people do, flip the rear hubs and run 9:00-20 singles. They look goofy since the outside of the tire is well inboard of the bed (which is why the M34/M135 beds were narrower). For that matter, even the 11:00-20s look a little goofy when singled out. That is why most folks who run singles run the wide tires, they look more natural (and the wider tires are usually taller, so you pick up a little top speed and fuel economy).
You do sacrifice some load capacity by running 9:00-20 singles, but not as much as you might think. Tires run as duals are derated. I just checked one of my tires and it is rated 4000 lbs max load as a single and 3510 lbs as duals. So running 9:00-20 singles in the rear would give you 8000 lbs tire capacity per axle. The data plates I have on hand list the max rear axle ratings from 8344 to 8521 lbs per axle, so your payload is reduced by 1042 lbs max. You do lose the above mentioned advantages of rear tire redundancy, and there is no tire capacity margin of safety at max load. However, steerability, tire wear and off road performance are improved with the singles.
Yes, 9:00-20 singles work, 11:00-20 singles are better, radial super singles are the best.
As for matching tires in a dual configuration, see the following link:
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1906
You can, and a few people do, flip the rear hubs and run 9:00-20 singles. They look goofy since the outside of the tire is well inboard of the bed (which is why the M34/M135 beds were narrower). For that matter, even the 11:00-20s look a little goofy when singled out. That is why most folks who run singles run the wide tires, they look more natural (and the wider tires are usually taller, so you pick up a little top speed and fuel economy).
You do sacrifice some load capacity by running 9:00-20 singles, but not as much as you might think. Tires run as duals are derated. I just checked one of my tires and it is rated 4000 lbs max load as a single and 3510 lbs as duals. So running 9:00-20 singles in the rear would give you 8000 lbs tire capacity per axle. The data plates I have on hand list the max rear axle ratings from 8344 to 8521 lbs per axle, so your payload is reduced by 1042 lbs max. You do lose the above mentioned advantages of rear tire redundancy, and there is no tire capacity margin of safety at max load. However, steerability, tire wear and off road performance are improved with the singles.
Yes, 9:00-20 singles work, 11:00-20 singles are better, radial super singles are the best.
As for matching tires in a dual configuration, see the following link:
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1906
dmetalmiki
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I run 1200x20 on my deuce. all the favourable comments apply. rears flipped SPACER plates on ALL axles carry the wheels IN LINE and track (width) max! the engine (now) never "hunts" and I keep up with (H.G.V.) traffic at decent R.P.M.s. P.S. looks and stands great!
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Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
I have been told that different "deuce" wheels have different offsets. I know nothing about this nor know how to tell which wheels mine has, maybe somene can help with that info. The truck had 9.00x20's on it when I got it. I do believe the wheels are original to the 1968 truck.
There is a article on it here with pictures. The pictures are with the 3 ton load in the bed.
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/mil/m35/11x20/11x20fit.html
I have them, no issues on or off road, 6000 LBS in the bed. I was told by some that they would rub and by others that they would not. I run 65PSI. Maybe they would rub with less pressure. I had a flat on an inside rear the other day and drove on it on the highway for 25 miles at 55MPH. didn't notice. After removing the 5" nail and repairing the tube, back in business. The weight rating and pressure limit (85PSI) of the 11.00's is much greater than the 9.00x20's.jimk said:
I have been told that different "deuce" wheels have different offsets. I know nothing about this nor know how to tell which wheels mine has, maybe somene can help with that info. The truck had 9.00x20's on it when I got it. I do believe the wheels are original to the 1968 truck.
There is a article on it here with pictures. The pictures are with the 3 ton load in the bed.
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/mil/m35/11x20/11x20fit.html
Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
Imagine the axle positions when exiting from say a 45 degree slope to a flat surface - the truck is trying to level out, the front axle on the level, the front rear axle right at the break point and the rear rear axle still four feet down the slope. The rear axles are going to be at a severe angle to the body and the tires will be quite close to the bed even in an empty truck. With 11:00-20s you are giving up about 2-3" of suspension travel. Check out the photo gallery, you see will some pics of what I am talking about.
The issue is not so much the tires rubbing on a fully loaded truck on a level pavement. The springs don't flex much, even at max load. The real problem is in serious off road use such as crossing ditches and berms or making the transition from steep slopes to flat terrain, the walking beam puts the axles through some pretty extreme gyrations, and therein lies the rub (pun intended)!jimk said:
Imagine the axle positions when exiting from say a 45 degree slope to a flat surface - the truck is trying to level out, the front axle on the level, the front rear axle right at the break point and the rear rear axle still four feet down the slope. The rear axles are going to be at a severe angle to the body and the tires will be quite close to the bed even in an empty truck. With 11:00-20s you are giving up about 2-3" of suspension travel. Check out the photo gallery, you see will some pics of what I am talking about.
gimpyrobb
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT
To heck with the photos, check out the Haspin videos. There are some shots of Junkyard Wars Crusher's 5 ton going through the whoop dee doos that illistrate it well. .02
To heck with the photos, check out the Haspin videos. There are some shots of Junkyard Wars Crusher's 5 ton going through the whoop dee doos that illistrate it well. .02