818 Winch problems & Questions

[mhb285]

I’m helping key-largo with his M818. When he got it, the winch was over wound, the shear pin was snapped and the chain wrapped so tight around the front bumper that it bent it.
Since the PTO was locked in neutral and the winch drive shaft was not turning, no problem. Or so we thought. Fast forward to about a month ago. We are driving around the yard with it in low range. We stopped and shifted it into hi-range. We go about ¼ mile or so and the truck starts making a noise from ****. The PTO was locked in neutral and it slipped into gear. The winch drive shaft started to spin. After awhile the heat & friction welded the drive shaft and winch drive together, now with a locked up winch wound up even tighter!
Last week, we cut one of the shackles. Sounded like a 9mm when it let go. Scared the crap out of me.
The winch is sort of free. It will turn if we put a strap wrench on the PTO shaft & turn it. The PTO will only shift into HI & neutral, not LO. We want to remove the PTO & PTO drive shaft. TM 9-2320-260-20 page 13-22 for shaft removal isn’t helping us. With the shaft basically welded to the Winch at the front & nothing movable at the rear of the shaft we were thinking about draining the transmission and removing the PTO. We would have to remove the anyway as it appears to be fried (see pix) and we want to check for damage inside the transmission.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Mike & Walt

 

[doghead]

Sounds like the PTO lever linkage was incorrectly adjusted, for the neutral position/lock plate.

I've seen that before, and the resulting winch damage.

 

[doghead]

The shaft should collapse just enough to get it off the PTO end.

The other end, , you should be able to drive the U-joint apart. Then use a puller to remove the yoke.

If your winch input shaft is really bad, it may need replacement.

The yoke with the shear pin hole can be replaced. Fleet pride told me they could modify a "blank" to make one. I gave them the Dana/Spicer part number, but they could not find it that way. I bought all they had in stock at Saturn Surplus. Maybe White Owl or Memphis has them.

 

[73m819]

This EVENT is one of the MAIN reasons that the DRUM CLUTCH is ALWAYS left in the DISENGAGED position when the winch is NOT IN USE, the -10 tells you to disengage the drum clutch, Engage the DRUM LOCK, that is why it is there.

It is a lot cheaper to READ the -10 on winch use then to FIX the damage after the event, and still the TM has to be read

 

[key-largo]

Ron,

Agreed regarding reading the appropriate TM. I acquired the truck with the winch in a tweaked state and am just trying to get things back on track.

-Walt

 

[mhb285]

This EVENT is one of the MAIN reasons that the DRUM CLUTCH is ALWAYS left in the DISENGAGED position when the winch is NOT IN USE, the -10 tells you to disengage the drum clutch, Engage the DRUM LOCK, that is why it is there.

It is a lot cheaper to READ the -10 on winch use then to FIX the damage after the event, and still the TM has to be read

If'en we could figure it out by reading the TM's We wouldn't be here.......
WTF......
If you can't offer POSITIVE coment's ..... Then well.....

 

[73m819]

"Since the PTO was locked in neutral and the winch drive shaft was not turning, no problem. Or so we thought".

" We are driving around the yard with it in low range. We stopped and shifted it into hi-range. We go about ¼ mile or so and the truck starts making a noise from ****. The PTO was locked in neutral and it slipped into gear. The winch drive shaft started to spin. After awhile the heat & friction welded the drive shaft and winch drive together, now with a locked up winch wound up even tighter!"

This EVENT is one of the MAIN reasons that the DRUM CLUTCH is ALWAYS left in the DISENGAGED position when the winch is NOT IN USE, the -10 tells you to disengage the drum clutch, Engage the DRUM LOCK, that is why it is there.

It is a lot cheaper to READ the -10 on winch use then to FIX the damage after the event, and still the TM has to be read

If'en we could figure it out by reading the TM's We wouldn't be here.......
WTF......
If you can't offer POSITIVE coment's ..... Then well.....

Thought this was a POSTIVE comment about WHY you DISANGAGE the drum clutch and ENGAGE the drum lock when the winch is not in use, so MAYBE this will NOT happen to someone else. In fact the pto jumping into gear was most likely the ROOT cause of the winch issue to begin with.

 

[spicergear]

Good point Ron.

 

[mhb285]

"Since the PTO was locked in neutral and the winch drive shaft was not turning, no problem. Or so we thought".

" We are driving around the yard with it in low range. We stopped and shifted it into hi-range. We go about ¼ mile or so and the truck starts making a noise from ****. The PTO was locked in neutral and it slipped into gear. The winch drive shaft started to spin. After awhile the heat & friction welded the drive shaft and winch drive together, now with a locked up winch wound up even tighter!"





Thought this was a POSTIVE comment about WHY you DISANGAGE the drum clutch and ENGAGE the drum lock when the winch is not in use, so MAYBE this will NOT happen to someone else. In fact the pto jumping into gear was most likely the ROOT cause of the winch issue to begin with.

Sorry if I cane across as a A-Hole...... Was not my intention... Sorry....
Mike

 

[dburt]

Good advice for all of us with winches on our trucks- "the drum clutch is left in the dis-engaged position and the drum lock engaged when not in use" should always be our mantra. And we should visually check it every time we get in our trucks to start them. What if some one walks past and grabs the handle just to see if it moves, and does not place it back in the correct dis-engaged position? If we did not leave the drum lock in the engaged position, this is a very real possibility! An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure!

 

[zebedee]

Same winch - different problem...

.... or "The ARMY broke my winch"!

Assuming the initial issue of this thread is resolved (unless there are some post PTO surgery pics???) - I'll throw my situation at the masses:

Clues:
I Chain, hook and damaged cable/cable end found under crane.
II Thimble/clamp - new hook/chain on winch.
III Cable spooled the wrong way on drum - scoring the back of the level wind!, and bent back on it's self at the drum anchor point.
IV Cable bunched on one side of the drum and not tight or level.
V Cable only ~ 150 feet with lots of burrs along length (WEAR GLOVES - no kidding!)
VI and this is the best... Hardened steel cotter pin and "R" clip where
"al-oo-min-um" shear pin (and 2 split pins) should be! (Still learnin my 'merikan - we say "Al-U-min-ee-um" [spell it different too] )

So with the level wind serviced and modified for swivel lube (Level Wind maintenance anomoly, Front Winch ) attempt to rewind cable the correct way... Drive shaft revolves, both directions and faster one way ie., L,H & R (but lever in cab not adjusted correctly with hinged plate - as previously mentioned) BUT drum only rotates in the Reverse direction!!!? Yes I know this is a physically impossible with a worm gear, but that's what I have...

..obviously the next step is to pull the unit and dissassemble the gearbox side of the winch.

POINT BEING - don't assume your new purchase is all it's supposed to be and can go to work on day one. Steel cotter pin indeed!

(Will not be consulting TM's for a while - I put down 5 acres of hay yesterday then had to split the tractor last night as the clutch went! Need to get new clutch and have flywheel machined today before I can continue with making hay.... before I can play some more.... 'Dang it' - I wanted to drive the truck to the Fathersday tractor pull n truck show this weekend)

.... more later.

 

[F18hornetM]

I'm sure its something they over looked, but we always leave winches "out of gear". At work we have over 100 front bumper winches. Even with hydraulic driven winches, the operators are instructed to leave dis-engaged. We use capstans on the ends for pulling rope or wire and Ive seen operators pull the frame end in, because they forgot to disengage the drum.

My 813 has the winch drum lock pin broke. Im pretty sure as it will barely move and barely lock the drum. Its not rusted, but with the nut off and rotated feels bent.
I'm thinking someone put it in gear, [it came from GL with no winch cable on it] with the drum lock still engaged and probably damaged the end of the pin.

Ron or Doghead,
looking at the TM and reading removal instructions, it appears the lock pin should come out with the nut removed. Is this correct?? Just wanted another opinon before I pull to hard on it.
If I break it because its bent I will have to dissasemble anyway to repair. Just wanted to make sure it comes out that way.

Didnt mean to hi-jack thread, just thought of it

 

[73m819]

yes, will come out as a unit, the drum lock is nothing but a spring loaded pin

 

[F18hornetM]

I am thinking about putting a nut and spacer on it and pull it out. Gently. Maybe it will straighten enough to come out, if not it will break and I'll have to pull winch to get the other end. On the other hand if I mess with it I can get it to engage, and I put a zip tie on the cable and chain hook anyway so the hook/chain/cable has no chance of bouncing and un-spooling. I do that even on the M35 and its lock works great. just a idea I had. I hate the thought of that hook and chain coming off the clevis and boucing up into the radiator, a wire tie is cheap.

Thanks Ron, just nice to have a another opinion before I go putting pressure on it.

 

[73m819]

take the WHOLE unit out, then fix/rebuild/replace, the nut that has the slots in comes out

IN tm9 2320-260-34p-2, figure 380, there is a NICE exploded view, of the winch, upper right, item 24

 

[F18hornetM]

I have had the nut, spring and lever off. The pin will not come out. Thats why I know it feels bent went rotating it, its not siezed/rusty like I first thought. Thats why I suspect it was put in gear with the pin engaged. I can sort of feel the bent end, which is what I believe can happen if partailly or fully engaged and winch put in gear.
If the bent/damaged pin will come out without removing the whole winch and diassembling, I will try that first. If it breaks when I pull on it, then I will have to remove the winch.

PS:not my first winch Ive worked on, just my first one on an M813. Worked on dozens and dozens of Bradens

 

[73m819]

try comming down between the drum and the side case with a flat peice of iron like a 90 deg scraper, either force it out or get it turned so the bend is uo and then try to knock it straight by hitting the bend down,, maybe enough to get it out

 

[F18hornetM]

Hey good idea, I will try to turn "bent" part up, if I can feel it. If can fit some thin flat bar in there, just might work enough to get out. Hey your worth something!!!

Thanks!!! I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[zebedee]

I think you are all talking about this one... If the pin rotates, then even if it has been bent and has a burr, you should be able to unwind it with the nut and jam nut inplace.

 

[73m819]

Hey good idea, I will try to turn "bent" part up, if I can feel it. If can fit some thin flat bar in there, just might work enough to get out. Hey your worth something!!!

Thanks!!! I'll let you know how it goes.

Yep, old age is worth something, done most of this crap or something like it at least once before,

Before you do, pull the springs, then put the handle back on (or vice grips), this may help to turn it up