AVM vs Ouverson: take a closer look!

[builder77]

I saw John's AVM hubs this weekend, and they looked well made to me. I also enjoyed finally meeting him. I have no clue which is stronger or better. OEM has a great reputation too. I know John has some good show pricing on his AVMs that might make people more interested in them. The thing is that I strongly suspect that of the people that add locking hubs are adding them for easier turning and better MPGs. For the most part here we are not hard core off-roading our trucks. I really love this side-by-side comparison thread, and if it helps some people decide then great. By the way I have no dog in this fight as I am just planning on desplinning a set of stock hubs.

 

[dabtl]

This is not product disparagement; it is fair and objective benchmarking. In my industry, we do it every chance we get. You can bet that our customers do, too.

Benchmarking generally involves standardized tests as opposed to gee whiz comparisons. What began as a gee whiz comparison became disparagement in the follow up post.

Everyone should just trust their own judgment at this point as there are no test results, only pics and gee whiz look at this comments.

I understand that. This is not a performance characterization. It is doubtful that many have the real abilities to do that. However, benchmarking does include construction analysis; this being more of an overview. My interpretation of your posts was that you see no value whatsoever by the teardown. We will have to agree to disagree.

I found the tear down interesting, but inconclusive. I am no engineer and neither unit has been compared under stress. I find the Ouverson unit interesting as well as the AVM. But, the question still remains, how much makes a difference?

You may be more impressed with the 'seeology' than the geology, as we say in Texas, but then everyone has decisions to make when buying any product.

Well, I am an engineer and reasonable inferences can be made by inspection; IF you know what you are looking at. As an example, I (or anyone else knowledgeable in the industry) can de-lid a competitor's unit, read the part number off of the IC and know what characteristics the unit posses. There will be minor differences due to other components and construction techniques but overall characteristics will be known. Even if I haven't characterized THAT particular competitor's design, I can still know what to expect just by the topology used in their design.

The analysis of the hubs need not be that clouded.

And, I have been both in manufacturing and sales. Without testing and comparative testing your opinion and mine have exactly the same value. But, having been involved in sales for many years, while practicing law, some sell steak and some sell sizzle. Here, without more information, sizzle is the name of the game. One with a bearing, one with another feature and so on.

I am not trying to flack you or disparage either product, as they both will out last me by many years, I suspect.

 

[dabtl]

well ill put my in this. As i can sell and do sell all 3 brands. anyone using high horsepower and such on there rig is going strictly with Ouverson as that its just there preference. and i have looked and used all 3 brands. i would personally rate them at the Ouverson being the best over all of them. Frt aint that much they are a small package. but im not trying to get into a debate or start a war. but i would go with Ouversons first, but thats why there is a market out there and there is this many companies. they all are doing there thing and selling a product.

And, I used your axle in the rear axle disconnect on my M35 and thought it an impressive piece. I would recommend it to any all needing to do the disconnect or have a much beefier axle.

Works fine with the AVM hub.

 

[doghead]

This thread really reminds me of the Miller advertisements, "Tastes Great... Less Filling".

For those that don't remember them....
Miller Lite is known for its long-running "Great Taste...Less Filling!" advertising campaign, which was ranked by Advertising Age magazine as the 8th best advertising campaign in history. In the prime of the campaign, television commercials typically portrayed a Miller Lite drinker noting its great taste followed by another who observed that it was less filling. This usually led to a parody of Wild West saloon fights in which every patron got involved in the dispute for no real reason, though in this case it was always a shouting match, and blows were never thrown.

Btw, where does this leave Selectro hubs?

 

[jatonka]

AVM vs. Ouverson hubs

I just got done moving out of Wingswheelsandtracks.com show, last was the M46 Utica Bend with Couse Shop Set #2 machine shop portable unit. It took a while to read the posts. I will comment on a few things that I am experienced with.
The AVM hub has been made since 1957. I run a set on my Oregon M109A3 that were made in 1953. They are still working fine. I think that is 55 years.
The AVM hub is cast steel, considerably different than cast iron I believe.
I sold Ouverson hubs for Art Bloom and I had one of the only sets of Billett Aluminum machined hubs they ever did. I sold them for $750 in 2004 at the Dover,NJ show I never saw another set. They are more now if you can get them at all.
I sold cast aluminum Ouversons too, I had no trouble with them looking good in the box. I did have trouble trying to use our existing bolts to mount them on the truck. Hex head bolts won't fit. You have to use Allen head socket screw cap bolts. Some people have trouble torquing them correctly. AVM hubs use the bolts you took off your drive flanges. Easy to torque to specs.
One mud bogger named Adam from NY state told me he broke the engaging mechanizim on his Ouverson on a cold moring last year and said he was unhappy with the mud that got in his hubs. I had him take one of the AVMs apart to compare the engaging device and he told me the AVM was much better built.
I am the only Distributor of AVM model #434 hubs for M35 Rockwell axles in North America, I am confused about how Offroadfabworks has sold them along with Selectro and Ouversons. I have never sold any to them .
Gringletraube wanted to become an AVM distributor pretty badly a while ago, seems odd that he is so critical of them now, especially with such a huge price difference in SA
I have NEVER had an AVM hub failure at all. I know of one broken set of Ouversons that I can put my hands on.
The Avm Hub is manufactured using the same materials and technology as the Mercedes Unimog and larger vehicles.
AVM has never been arrogant to me, and actually, have been very friendly, helpful, and patient with me through the whole process of ordering hubs that hadn't been made in years.
I am sorry for the long post, the AVMs are always available, I price them as best as I can, I am able to ship immediately, and am always willing to talk on the phone or email you. John Tennis

 

[OPCOM]

Re: RE: AVM hubs

...
The pics simply show differences in manufacturing products that do the same thing. If you like the bearing in the Ouverson unit, buy it. But, does it make a difference? And, if it does, how much of a difference? This is kind of like RCA and Zenith arguing about who had the better TV. They both produced color pictures of the same quality. So, in order to sell one or the other, they touted what was inside that you could not see.

It is all interesting but of little actual consequence.

There were consequences, but most of the drooling TV-watching public wouldn't notice. I repaired RCA and Zenith TV sets (among others) professionally for 15 years. Each one had its ephemeral good points from chassis to chassis. The better picture tube design alternated between the two, not necessarily in phase with the better picture quality! Nope. definitely there were measurable differences and once you measured them, you know what to look for and could tell which was better.

The trick is not to say which is better or that they are just alike, but to use clever marketing slogans to drive customers to the products.
Zenith: The quality goes in before the name goes on

Motorola/Quasar: Works in a Drawer (yes even junior could pull out the drawer of high voltage electronics for convenient service..)

Curtis Mathis: The most expensive TV set made in America, a darn well worth it. ($800 for a 19" TV in '82)

RCA: Electronics for Living

Cosley: Big Picture Television

GE: More Picture Per Dollar! (we used to call them "gutless wonders")

Sony: Built Like A Space-Age Rocket!

So, what slogans should apply to these hubs?
That would be amusing to make some up, based on the pile of parts shown.

 

[Elwenil]

RE: Re: RE: AVM hubs

That's not my quote, lol...

 

[OPCOM]

RE: Re: RE: AVM hubs

my bad. dabtl's quote..

I guess "the names go in before the quotes go on" should be the slogan.

 

[Elwenil]

RE: Re: RE: AVM hubs

Lol, it's ok. You can edit it and just swap his name in where mine is in your post and it should fix it.

 

[RANDY@OUVERSONENG.]

Re: AVM vs. Ouverson hubs

I just got done moving out of Wingswheelsandtracks.com show, last was the M46 Utica Bend with Couse Shop Set #2 machine shop portable unit. It took a while to read the posts. I will comment on a few things that I am experienced with.
The AVM hub has been made since 1957. I run a set on my Oregon M109A3 that were made in 1953. They are still working fine. I think that is 55 years.
The AVM hub is cast steel, considerably different than cast iron I believe.
I sold Ouverson hubs for Art Bloom and I had one of the only sets of Billett Aluminum machined hubs they ever did. I sold them for $750 in 2004 at the Dover,NJ show I never saw another set. They are more now if you can get them at all.
I sold cast aluminum Ouversons too, I had no trouble with them looking good in the box. I did have trouble trying to use our existing bolts to mount them on the truck. Hex head bolts won't fit. You have to use Allen head socket screw cap bolts. Some people have trouble torquing them correctly. AVM hubs use the bolts you took off your drive flanges. Easy to torque to specs.
One mud bogger named Adam from NY state told me he broke the engaging mechanizim on his Ouverson on a cold moring last year and said he was unhappy with the mud that got in his hubs. I had him take one of the AVMs apart to compare the engaging device and he told me the AVM was much better built.
I am the only Distributor of AVM model #434 hubs for M35 Rockwell axles in North America, I am confused about how Offroadfabworks has sold them along with Selectro and Ouversons. I have never sold any to them .
Gringletraube wanted to become an AVM distributor pretty badly a while ago, seems odd that he is so critical of them now, especially with such a huge price difference in SA
I have NEVER had an AVM hub failure at all. I know of one broken set of Ouversons that I can put my hands on.
The Avm Hub is manufactured using the same materials and technology as the Mercedes Unimog and larger vehicles.
AVM has never been arrogant to me, and actually, have been very friendly, helpful, and patient with me through the whole process of ordering hubs that hadn't been made in years.
I am sorry for the long post, the AVMs are always available, I price them as best as I can, I am able to ship immediately, and am always willing to talk on the phone or email you. John Tennis

I am not here to get into a pissing match. i appreciate the indepth teardown and comparison of the 2 sets of lockouts. I know the quality and workmanship that goes into my hubs. I know the abuse they can take. I use these in real world experiences and they are proven. I also stand behind what i sell. what i dont like is when someone says that some guy in some state says this and says that, to me, that is hearsay. on a cold morning some guy broke the engagement mechanism that is made out of 6061 t-6 billet aluminum and 4140 alloy with an 8620 alloy shift sleeve. i find that extremely hard to believe. I also wonder how mud gets into a triple o-ringed sealed cavity. I wonder what condition his boots were in? What did the grease in the knuckle look like? Its stuff like this that gets to me. I would really like to see the set of broken ouversons that are floating around out there. Why havent they been sent back to me for replacement? This seems to happen once in awhile. People say they break stuff, but when you want to see why the part failed, for some reason they cant seem to find it. I also find it funny that the competitors hubs sell for the same price as mine do. Why not sell them for 589/set. Maybe i will raise my price to 650/set, that way there is a huge difference and it wont be hard to base a decision on which one to buy. that would make it much easier. forget about made in the usa, especially when our economy is booming and everyone has a job. forget about quality and workmanship and what it takes to make these things the best that money can buy. Cheaper is better? Oh yeah, i forgot, i know this guy that took apart my competitors lockout hubs, and he found 100 dollar bills stuffed inside them. go figure.
best regards and to everyone that purchased products from ouverson eng. over the years, i truly appreciate it. you guys have helped me out alot.
Thankyou, Randy Ouverson

 

[scooter01922]

I think that Offroadfabworks was referring to the fact that he sells AVM hubs for other applications, not nessecarily duece related.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Hi Randy! Welcome to Steel Soldiers. Sorry it had to be amidst a little tussle of a discussion. Please stop in again to chat.

 

[Bigmillman]

Yes, thanks for joining in Randy. You have a quality product. Thank you for everything you do for our hobby.

 

[Desert Deuce]

Welcome Randy, Thanks for your excellent service on my recent order. I'm sure both hubs will provide many years of tough service. It's a personal choice. I chose Ourverson's based on my own reseach over the last year. When I called to order, I spoke to the owner and manufacturer, Randy. I like that.

It's all about customer sevice, sounds like they will both perform well. When things do go bad though (and you have to assume that they will) who's going to take care of ya. My bet is both of them. Being an Engineer myself, I tend to go for overengineering.

By the way, I've also done business with Don and had a great expirience. Nothing from John yet but I am needeing some canvas shift boots.

 

[rmgill]

I know we have one member who's busted one of his. He hit a jersey barrier and it naturally failed. I can't think of anything that wouldn't' fail after one of those was encountered. In some respects, you'd probably want it to fail.

I like my set. They stick out. That's a plus in my book, since I have 1100s, they make a useful step to get up to the fender. I can just step up to that and then easily hop up to the fender and then get my legs up and stand up to do work or sit on the fender. It beats climbing up the bumper which I can also do.

Here's the install. I liked the quality of what I found in the box and the hardware that was included.

So far I've not had a problem and they've worked well on soft going and off road. I like em.

 

[55Cameo]

I don't know anything about the AVM products except what I've seen here so I will not comment on them. But, I do have dealings with Randy. There is no doubt in my opinion that he is one of the most outstanding people to deal with related to this hobby. I have talked to him on several occasions, purchased several lockers, 2" axle shafts and more. He has always supplied the best product that I've ever seen for rockwells. I think that if he makes it, it will hold up to much use and abuse. If it breaks, he will probably take care of it (unless you hit a concrete barrier with it) he would want to see the failed parts, if there are any, to make it better, stronger, faster. Allan.

 

[rizzo]

I know Randy Ouverson will stand by his product 100%. With the added bonus of buying from an American small businessman, I am willing to pay a few dollars more for his products.
There are some things between the two products that have not been noted. I think they are big differences. For the sake of peace and harmony PM me if you are interested in what they are.

 

[sprucemt]

I know John Tennis will stand by any of his products, 100%. With the added bonus of buying from an American small businessman who is directly involved and who has a great impact on this hobby.

With full disclosure here, John Tennis is in fact a good friend of mine, I have sold alot of his quality products and have always fully supported him in the quest to get an additional locking hub product out in the market place.

But, I thought this post was about the product, not the people selling them.

So, if there is factual, valid data out there, I would suggest not to hide it behind PM's, but to post it here.

Purchasing lock out hubs are a major purchase, with multiple choices of mfg, style, design and cost.

I believe the individual members are smart enough to wallow thru the data on this thread and figure out whats right for them.

 

[Elwenil]

Actually, it's about the product and the way they are manufactured. Not only does OEM sell the Ouverson hub, they are the manufacturer. No one has said anything bad about John Tennis, quite the opposite, actually. I think if you read back through the thread you will realize that his name was brought up when people started defending him from some sort of attack, but in reality, no one attacked anyone. We are discussing the hubs and the manufacturers, not the people who sell them. I'm sure Mr. Tennis is a great guy, and from what I have heard I would have no problem buying from him but I don't really think anyone has said anything bad about him or his business. We are just talking about the pros and cons of the hubs themselves and since the original poster mentioned his experience dealing with the manufacturer, they have been brought into the conversation as well. I honestly don't know why everyone is defending John, since no one has attacked him, his reputation or his business.

 

[m376x6]

Re: AVM vs. Ouverson hubs

[ The AVM hub is cast steel, considerably different than cast iron I believe.


Hi John, Thanks for chiming in. There sure has been a lot of crap on this thread. Your hubs have run the gammit of metalurgy. I went down to the shop to see if I still had a crashed AVM but couldn't find it. I wanted to clear up some of the misconceptions but didn't want to do it until I could back up my statement. I'm impressed by both your comments and those of the Ouverson chap. You're both proper folk. I've just come up from the shop being on my mill and lathe this morning. I've been watching this thread with some interest. It is a while in coming, but I will once again have a duece. Ironic, that after collecting 2 1/2 and 5 ton parts and stuff for over 15 hears and then selling it all, I am going to get another one or two to ultimately end up with a Bob. Take care John.

Regards,
Bryan