AVM vs Ouverson: take a closer look!

[gringeltaube]

Well spoken, Lanty!

Product vs product... just that.

Kevin if you don't mind please let us know...!

We do a lot of deep water fording here, so my main concern has always been water- tightness of the steering knuckles and specially the hubs. Since I had a bad experience with Selectros it was only logical for me to investigate how OEM and AVM had solved that problem in particular. Personally I would always prefer an O-ring over a gasket to keep the cover sealed to the housing and also a V-Ring or lip seal over O-Rings between dial knob and cover.

As I explained at the beginning of this thread the seal on AVMs dial knob is hard to reach without damaging the 4 small clips that hold the plastic parts in place. Actually I doubt that anyone has ever completely disassembled one without having a spare parts kit by hand. Also normally nobody would have to, since the seal would come correctly installed and lubed and probably lasts as long as the hub itself. Who would suspect something different….?
After I found the mentioned problem in two of my hubs (and AVMs #1 nice response!) I decided it was time to let other members know about it and how to detect a twisted seal from the outside without disassembly.
By now it seems nobody else has had any issues....?!


Gerhard

 

[sprucemt]

RE: Re: AVM vs. Ouverson hubs

Lanty,
Gringeltaube is posting in US based forum. AVM in the US " is " John Tennis. John Tennis was not available to post, if he chose. I therefore advised the forum as such.
My next two post's were to clarify what I thought was mis-information.
The next post was in response to Kennys question.
My next post was to advise headwizard where John Tennis was.
And the last and previous post you read for yourself.

I happen to be one who thinks that back slapping, oh he is such a good guy, gush, gush, gush, gush, is just as bad as the bashing that is currently in progress on another subject on this forum. Which was the point of the last post.

And obviously I do not like mis-information.

 

[Elwenil]

RE: Re: AVM vs. Ouverson hubs

I understand what you are saying, Don, but I do disagree with the statement that AVM in the US "is" John Tennis. I understand that he is the US distributor for the product, but he is not the manufacturer and alleged design issues with the product do not in any way reflect on him as a person or as a businessman. True, his reputation does sort of ride on his products and his service, but I don't think it is fair or reasonable to hold him accountable for what may or may not be wrong with a product he sells. After all, rarely does the retailer offer a warranty, it's normally the manufacturer, since they are the ones responsible for the quality of the product. Again, I have heard nothing but good things about John and his business but we are here to discuss facts and opinions about two products, not their retailers. Just my .02

 

[dabtl]

As I previously noted, John Tennis must be selling a lot of AVM hubs to merit this kind of excitement. Fairly obviously, he has a value driven product as well as a good reputation for innovation and service. That his competitors have to go to work to sell their products now is not unexpected. The winner, of course, is the consumer.

 

[Elwenil]

Honestly, until this thread was posted, I had never heard of AVM hubs except in Europe for vehicles like Land Rovers. Ouverson is a very popular name with the rock crawling crowd, which is more my speed.

 

[sprucemt]

My preference is facts, Lanty. Un-biased facts. Opinion of an alleged design issue????? How about, they are just built different.


I agree to disagree.

 

[HeadWizard]

I think this is all great stuff.

It is certainly not worth anyone getting their blood pressure up about though. There's multiple manufacturers and distributors for many products in our hobby. And then there's everyones opinions to deal with. Lets all have a soda pop or something.

QUESTION: Does anyone have personal knowledge of (ACTUALLY SEEN) any one of these hubs that are being discussed that were ACTUALLY BROKEN during use (other than running them into a Jersey barrier or some other such stupidity) ? Please show us.

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


ALSO:
Is there more than 1 type of Ouverson hub?
What EXACTLY is the AVM made of?

 

[bigdummy]

Hello all... My name is Gabe Osten, and I have been Randy Ouverson's Engineer since his business began. This has been an interesting thread, as it is always good to hear feedback from customers and critics alike. Thank you especially to those of you who have supported OEM over the years. Without our customers, we couldn't be here!

Ok, now on to the real reason I wanted to post. I thought that you would be interested in some of the design goals and priorities that we had in mind when the Ouverson lockouts were designed.

The biggest priority when we designed the lockouts was sheer strength. Most of our customers, and indeed ourselves, are very active off road enthusiasts that are very rough on our equipment, and need to have components that are durable and strong in the harshest of conditions. For that reason, these lockouts were designed to be stronger than the strongest axleshaft that they could accept. In the case of the lockout being compared here, that means that it needed to be stronger than a stock sized chrome moly axleshaft. (we also have a model sized for our 2" chrome moly shafts). This means that our lockouts may weigh a little more than some of our competitors, but we are willing to accept that. After all, when your axle weighs 700 lb, is a couple more much of an issue?

Our lockouts are typically used in environments that are much more harsh than those encountered by most people, so they had to be able to be submerged in either water or mud repeatedly and for long durations with either no or very little effect. This is the reason why our actuation knob is double sealed, and why all of the other external joints in the lockout are o-ring sealed. Even the joint between the lockout and the hub gets an o-ring. Anybody who has run vehicles through mud knows how hard it is to keep it out of anything that moves. With the double seals on the only external moving component, it is very difficult to contaminate the lockout from the outside. Even if it is covered in mud or submerged when you move it.

Durability was also a major concern. Many of our customers are either serious or competitive rock crawlers. These rigs see very heavy abuse, and the lockouts need to be able to accept a certain amount of "road rash" without failing or becoming inoperative. This is the reason why we do not use any plastic parts in our lockouts.

I like to tell people that design is a series of compromises. Depending upon the goal of the design, different compromises may be made that better suit the design intent. A good design meets all of your goals, while compromising only a little and gaining a lot. Hopefully, now you know a little more clearly where our priorities lie, and some of the basic decisions behind the design of our parts. I hope this helps you make your personal choice about which components best fit your needs.

Sorry for the long post - hopefully it was worth reading.

Gabe Osten
Ouverson Engineering

 

[rizzo]

I know John Tennis will stand by any of his products, 100%.

so you are saying that John Tennis will replace the hubs for free if they are broken due to a defect? Even if used with 800 hp motor and 57 ish inch rice and cain tires? and even if the AVM says they will not replace them?

 

[CaptainRPM]

Id have to say i feel better with a OUVERSON product. In this thread alone we have the owner of OEM mr Randy Ouverson and his Engineer now where else you gonna get that response. Also i like the fact that if you were to have a problem you can call OEM and speek to the OWNER that is the same guy making the parts.Customer satisfaction everytime. Great job Randy your products are 2nd to none.

 

[ucfjeeper]

EXCELENT comparrison.

I too would like to see this comparrison done with a selectro added to see and differences there.

I have been wanting locking hubs for a while now and so far from this post, I think my mind has been made...

THIS IS DEFINATELY WORTH A STICKY!!!

 

[gringeltaube]

There are some things between the two products that have not been noted.

Yes, there is something else I think is important to bring up. In one of my pics my comment was that the avm hubs have a lot of initial free play (radial and rotational) between their 16-splined sleeve and the axle shaft, compared to ouversons with a snug fit. Apparently nobody has noticed this before...!? Not even the manufacturer; at least he had the chance to respond to this but did not!

Besides that excessive tolerance and after closer inspection I found that the face angle of AVMs splines does NOT correspond with the angle of the splines on our axle shafts! I measured 50º (on more than one front axle shaft, some being brand new parts!) while theirs are 70º (!), which means that only the edge of the splines on the shaft is in contact, transmitting all the torque! Certainly not the case of OEM! Hopefully Mr. Osten could tell us what the exact or original design angle is or should be!

It is difficult to show the real problem in pics so I also made a little drawing...: Take a closer look, I think you get the idea...

Of course it would be much better if you all could take the referred parts in your own hands to compare and confirm all this...

Gerhard

 

[DanMartin]

What a great thread...I'll be calling Randy shortly.

opcorn:

 

[dabtl]

Nothing like inventing problems that are not present. Back in my sales days it was called 'fly specking' your competitors product. You sought to magnify differences with 'seeology' rather than any substantive differences in performance.

I think this thread is self apparent as product disparagement using 'seeology' to promote one brand of locking hub over the other.

If 'seeology' is the standard, then sermis hit the Jersey Barrier because of the extreme height of the Ouverson hubs caused them to stick out far enough to catch the barrier.

And if you think I am kidding about the product disparagement purpose of the thread, notice the first of the posts attempt to diminish the difference in the how far out the Ouverson hubs protrude. That protruding has been the subject of some cosmetic criticism in the past.

I have enjoyed watching the game in this thread, but I really think either the Ouverson or the AVM will last longer than any of us will care.

But enough of the product disparagement, please.

 

[Offroadfabworks]

What a great thread...I'll be calling Randy shortly.

opcorn:

Share some of that DM. i got extra butter opcorn: opcorn:

 

[Elwenil]

Nothing personal Dabtl, and I mean no offense or implication, but I( and I'm sure many others) have got to wonder why exactly you so fervently defend the AVM hub? I'm not going to comment anymore on which is better or worse, but I am curious why you are so taken with them. Is it because you own a set or do you have something against Ouverson, or something I have not considered yet?

Also, my comments and opinions are based on my personal experience which is considerable compared to some and next to nothing compared to others. I should also comment that I do not own either brand hub, or even a vehicle they would fit on, so I don't have a dog in the hunt, as they say.

Gringeltaube, regardless of who likes what, I do appreciate the comparison and the details you have brought to light to aid those interested in making a more informed choice. Carry on.

EDIT: I also have to comment that the engagement of the splines is a very critical area when strength is considered. I think that everyone can understand that more engagement surface, the more strength available. Gringeltaube, could you post a pic of the Ouverson hub's spline engagement to compare?

 

[dabtl]

Personally, I do not like product disparagement on this website. I do not know what the critical engagement surface area of the splines is, nor do I know why they differ. You do not either. They just do. Does it matter? What if the strength is more than enough in either case? No difference would be my assessment.

So far I have not defended the AVM hub or disparaged the Ouverson hub. I have said one is interesting, one is what I have and they both appear to be extremely serviceable from all accounts. I only point out the sales effort going on here as distasteful.

I doubt that 'many others' care about this, more than those attempting to disparage the AVM hub and John Tennis. John is perfectly capable of defending himself, as is Randy Ouverson. My stance is simple: I bought mine from John Tennis to keep a supplier going who is innovative and serves a very limited audience. Some may feel buying American products is a priority now. Some may not. I have been satisfied with the product and John Tennis. I hope John continues his interest in improving the breed, so to speak. Randy Ouverson supplies other needs primarily and this hobby secondarily. WE need all the vendors we can get.

Understand?

 

[Elwenil]

Perfectly and I agree with your statement about vendors but I would support both if I could since I like both hobbies. Thank you for indulging my curiosity without taking offense.

 

[rizzo]

I do not know what the critical engagement surface area of the splines is, nor do I know why they differ.

If you don't know what we are talking about how can you comment on it?

So far I have not defended the AVM hub or disparaged the Ouverson hub. I have said one is interesting, one is what I have and they both appear to be extremely serviceable from all accounts. I only point out the sales effort going on here as distasteful.

What sales effort are you talking about? These are facts. With Pictures as proof.

I doubt that 'many others' care about this, more than those attempting to disparage the AVM hub and John Tennis.

I have not seen anyone disparage John Tennis or the AVM hub. FACTS are being pointed out to others.

John is perfectly capable of defending himself, as is Randy Ouverson.

It is my understanding that John Tennis did not make the AVM hubs. He has nothing to do with this Subject. I understand that you like him and you are happy with the hubs you bought from him, but this is not about him at all.

My stance is simple: I bought mine from John Tennis to keep a supplier going who is innovative and serves a very limited audience. Some may feel buying American products is a priority now. Some may not. I have been satisfied with the product and John Tennis. I hope John continues his interest in improving the breed, so to speak.

that is very nice that you are supporting John Tennis.

Randy Ouverson supplies other needs primarily and this hobby secondarily.

Well it is very clear that you have NO idea what you are talking about. The first parts Randy ever made were for HIS vehicle to improve HIS HOBBY. After people saw how well they worked they wanted some for themselves.
Randy makes the parts, tests the parts, sells the parts and ships the parts. He is still very big into his hobby and continues to make parts for his hobby. I do know for a fact that Randy is more interested in making the best parts in the world than making the most money in the world.

Understand?

I think so. You feel that people are attacking the hubs you bought and the person you bought them from. So you are defending them.

disparage

2 : to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disparagement


A rose is a rose. No matter how you dress it up.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Rizzo --- I too have been wondering what the heck is going on here and why