Axle (s) rebuild thread, gears and lockers

[ramdough]

So, I did a 3 hour drive the other week, and noticed oil leaking from my front left hub inner seal, oil coming from my intermediate rear pinion, and my right rear two hubs were way hot (others were cool to the touch).

So, since I need to touch all three axles, I am leaning towards doing all CTIS seals, all inner hub seals, and swap in my 3 chunks that happen to have 3.07 gears and two rear axle lockers.

This is the thread.

So far, I have the CTIS seals and inner seals on order and one shim kit. If I need a second shim kit, I will have to order another.

I am hoping my swap in chunks have decent pinion seals. I will have to find out by trying them.

I have watched Call me Colt’s, Neil’s, Sean Filner’s, and Dave Anderson’s videos.

Any tips or tricks before I start?

I have a 1999 M1083A1…. Will I get ABS errors until I reset the speed in the ECM?


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[Wingnut13]

I’m gonna go get my popcorn…. This is gonna be cool!

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Seriously - sell them after you pull the lockers out and do ECO hubs. Keep the 3.90's. The 3.07's aren't as good with the ECO hubs. So many benefits. Biggest is really saving the engine and transmission - that C6 thrust bearing - engine longevity from not screaming at redline.

Literally no on that has done it has any regrets. I see no viable reasons for 3.07's anymore.

 

[Keith Knight]

I got ABS errors but it was because the pick up on the tone rings had gotten bumped are were to far from the ring. Pushed them in and work fine before programming.

 

[ramdough]

Seriously - sell them after you pull the lockers out and do ECO hubs. Keep the 3.90's. The 3.07's aren't as good with the ECO hubs. So many benefits. Biggest is really saving the engine and transmission - that C6 thrust bearing - engine longevity from not screaming at redline.

Literally no on that has done it has any regrets. I see no viable reasons for 3.07's anymore.

I knew I would see you here on this thread!


At this point, I think I want the low range more than the high range. If someone made locking hubs of some sort that would switch from eco mode to low range, I would snap them up in a heartbeat. From my off-road experience, having the lowest range possible has always been beneficial to me. 3.07’s is a compromise. I don’t plan to drive fast anyway.


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[ramdough]

I got ABS errors but it was because the pick up on the tone rings had gotten bumped are were to far from the ring. Pushed them in and work fine before programming.

Cool! Thanks!


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[ramdough]

I’m gonna go get my popcorn…. This is gonna be cool!

Can’t wait to have this finished!


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[Floridianson]

Can't remember where I got them but I got the shim kits pretty cheap so I got one shim kit for each hub. Yes you can reuse your old ones if they're in good shape it might not need to add or subtract any shims. You can always resell to somebody on the board any extra kits after you're done or hold on to them but I would get at least three kits to have on hand.

 

[ramdough]

Can't remember where I got them but I got the shim kits pretty cheap so I got one shim kit for each hub. Yes you can reuse your old ones if they're in good shape it might not need to add or subtract any shims. You can always resell to somebody on the board any extra kits after you're done or hold on to them but I would get at least three kits to have on hand.

Ordered a few more from eBay at $6 ea.

Thanks for the suggestion.


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[hike]

I knew I would see you here on this thread!


At this point, I think I want the low range more than the high range. If someone made locking hubs of some sort that would switch from eco mode to low range, I would snap them up in a heartbeat. From my off-road experience, having the lowest range possible has always been beneficial to me. 3.07’s is a compromise. I don’t plan to drive fast anyway.


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I was of the same mind and even did up a spreadsheet on the crawl ratios to compare 3.90's, 3.07's, 3.90's with EcoHubs, and 3.07's with Eco Hubs. I too like that my current Wrangler has 1:86 crawl ratio in 4Low first gear. What pushed me over the edge to 3.90's with EcoHubs is the torque multiplier in 1st and 2nd gears. Yes, you may have to soft pedal the brake though the available torque should be superior to what we get out of our Jeeps, (see quote from @Ronmar)

As general alluded to, in 1st and 2nd we are hydraulically coupled to the trans with a variable 0-2:1 torque multiplier which helps to match engine output to load… in that configuration we can apply anything from idle torque to peak engine torque, and we can override even engine idle torque using the brakes, so we have from 0 to double peak torque available to apply at any speed we choose From inches per hour to feet per second… The trans wont lockup/hard couple until 3rd gear…

In the first two weeks of January we are meeting up with some Jeep friends to try out Hidden Falls Adventure Park to test our M1078 with some folks who wheel their Wranglers much harder than I do. We'll bring some photos back and report on how the EcoHubs perform—

 

[GeneralDisorder]

At this point, I think I want the low range more than the high range. If someone made locking hubs of some sort that would switch from eco mode to low range, I would snap them up in a heartbeat. From my off-road experience, having the lowest range possible has always been beneficial to me. 3.07’s is a compromise. I don’t plan to drive fast anyway.

See the comment above from @hike

You will have plenty of low range. More than enough to overcome your ability to provide traction. You are seeing a drawback where none exists. You *want* something that's not being taken away. It's only your perception and understanding that's limited here. The 2:1 reduction torque converter and low range 1st on these trucks gives you more than enough gearing for anything short of starting 95,000 lbs on a grade. All normal scenarios in the civilian world you will be traction limited not torque limited.

I've driven a lot of these trucks - including A1P2's. I've converted four trucks to ECO hubs and driven them before and after. Trust me you want to keep the 3.90's and sell the 3.07's. If you don't - there will be an occasion for you to ride in one or drive one and you'll immediately regret that decision.

 

[hike]

If you don't - there will be an occasion for you to ride in one or drive one and you'll immediately regret that decision.

I have not driven the 3.07's. I love the changes Eco Hubs made to our M1078A1: significant noise reduction, simpler wheel hubs, less gear lash and loss of efficiency, more pep, smoother gear changes and lower rpm's at speed. The 3.07's only offer the last, and marginally.

In the exhibit below M1078 ECO HUBS and M1078 3.07 only offer a comparison of the 3.90's with EcoHubs to the 3.07's. The only crawl ratio advantage is in first; and the losses in 6th and 7th gears is significant as 1,600 rpms is where our Caterpillar engine powerband resides. Even if not looking for open road speeds over 50mph with the 3.07's you are pushing your engine hard beyond the powerband. With the EcoHubs our engines cruise smoothly at 60 in 6th gear around 1,600 rpm's. There in the powerband we see fewer downshifts and cooler engine temperatures.



Only you know your use case. Ours is to go where few people do and find them not there. As we are preparing our cab and chassis for a 16' habitat to go the kinds of places we now go in our Jeep pulling an off road trailer adding the ability to stay longer—

 

[Ronmar]

I was of the same mind and even did up a spreadsheet on the crawl ratios to compare 3.90's, 3.07's, 3.90's with EcoHubs, and 3.07's with Eco Hubs. I too like that my current Wrangler has 1:86 crawl ratio in 4Low first gear. What pushed me over the edge to 3.90's with EcoHubs is the torque multiplier in 1st and 2nd gears. Yes, you may have to soft pedal the brake though the available torque should be superior to what we get out of our Jeeps, (see quote from @Ronmar)



In the first two weeks of January we are meeting up with some Jeep friends to try out Hidden Falls Adventure Park to test our M1078 with some folks who wheel their Wranglers much harder than I do. We'll bring some photos back and report on how the EcoHubs perform—

If you get a chance, measure slope angles you drive up or cant

 

[aw113sgte]

I like playing devil's advocate and since we have a lot against the 2:1 I'll give some advantages of keeping them:
1. 1/2 the torque on your drivetrain components upstream of the hubs. In extreme scenarios you are way less likely to break something.
2: It takes much less time for engine to get up to temp as it's spinning faster.
3. The hub components were designed by engineers that likely had a better understanding of long term durability of components that the Eco hubs creator.
4. Eco hubs rely on a single m5 screw to hold the wheel on, if that fails your wheel can detatch.

That said, I have Eco hubs. I fixed the m5 issue. I have a long wheelbase truck that shouldn't see too much drivetrain abuse. Have the cold weather cover to help with temps.

I would make sure to check you hub/axle vents. Mine were clogged and pushed oil out all sorts of places (and it's a 2007).

The C6 bearing is actually really easy to change if you have access (depends on frame bracing). It's pricey at about $300 for bearing and gasket but better than price of a new transmission.

Axle seals are pretty easy, just don't abuse them while putting heavy hubs on and off.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

If you get a chance, measure slope angles you drive up or cant

I would bet real money there's nothing he can't climb unless he hasn't got the traction. I've had my truck at the sand dunes, and off road here in the PNW mud and trails and not had any scenario where I had insufficient torque to spin tires.

@ckouba has the 3.07's, lockers, AND ECO hubs on his M1088 chassis and absolutely loves them. Ask him about his experience with them. I assisted with the install. His truck would be better with the 3.90's but already had 3.07's and lockers installed when he purchased it.

I've said it before - the stock reduction hubs are for BOUNDARY CONDITION use cases. The 32,000 lb M1089 A1P2 wrecker pulling it's max rated 50,000 lbs up a 30 degree slope. Yeah - if you need to pull 82,000 lbs up a 30 degree slope or over an 18" vertical wall..... if THAT Is the stated requirement given to engineering then what other choices did they have?

So you lose a 2:1 reduction - are you 41,000 lbs? Planning to drag your RV over an 18" wall? Seems unlikely.

 

[ckouba]

@ckouba has the 3.07's, lockers, AND ECO hubs on his M1088 chassis and absolutely loves them. Ask him about his experience with them. I assisted with the install. His truck would be better with the 3.90's but already had 3.07's and lockers installed when he purchased

HAH! Doug and I chatted about this very subject an hour or three ago.

He has pumpkins with 3.07's and lockers, or he will have to swap the lockers out and keep the 3.90's and add ECO hubs. I think our conversation was making more work for him... I think he should definitely do ECO hubs simply for the driveline longevity, and then pick whichever gear ratio that seems appropriate. His dilemma is he already has pumpkins set up with lockers and 3.07's, so he'd have to swap a bunch of stuff around (lockers) and address the pinion seal issue as well, instead of a plug and play.

Either way, the hubs are the highest on my decision tree.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Definitely more work. But worth it for the results. And can put the 3.07's back together with the open diffs from the truck and sell them. Swapping a ring gear carrier isn't that tough of a job - these are fairly large diffs but they aren't THAT big in the scheme of things. Only about 1" larger than a Toyota Tundara (5.7) ring and pinion. This is not the truck to own if that's too big of a job. LoL.

And there's no guarantee that the replacement 3.07 third members don't need pinion seals also. Consider it preventative maintenance.

 

[Ronmar]

I would bet real money there's nothing he can't climb unless he hasn't got the traction. I've had my truck at the sand dunes, and off road here in the PNW mud and trails and not had any scenario where I had insufficient torque to spin tires.

oh I agree, the only fairly steep eco hillclimb shot I have seen they were starting to spin, but still motored right over the top…

 

[johnz]

See the comment above from @hike

You will have plenty of low range. More than enough to overcome your ability to provide traction. You are seeing a drawback where none exists. You *want* something that's not being taken away. It's only your perception and understanding that's limited here. The 2:1 reduction torque converter and low range 1st on these trucks gives you more than enough gearing for anything short of starting 95,000 lbs on a grade. All normal scenarios in the civilian world you will be traction limited not torque limited.

I've driven a lot of these trucks - including A1P2's. I've converted four trucks to ECO hubs and driven them before and after. Trust me you want to keep the 3.90's and sell the 3.07's. If you don't - there will be an occasion for you to ride in one or drive one and you'll immediately regret that decision.

This is why we love you, General!

 

[ramdough]

What sealant does everyone recommend for differential install and hubs?


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