Axle shafts too tight in housing.

[4XDesign]

I have been working on rebuilding a front axle on one of my trucks. The truck has needed more work than any other truck I've ever owned... I replaced the bearings, the spindle bushings, as well as the inner seal retainers with seals already installed. When bolting the spindles back on to the Axle, with the axle shaft installed it appeared as though the axle shaft was too long. Basically I used the studs to pull the spindle all the way flash to the knuckle. I'm not sure if there could be an issue with an axle shaft ring. I am also not certain if the axle would've possibly had a Bendix style axles and the style is a little different being the Spicer type now. The pictures are of the old seal retainers that I removed that obviously had too much pressure on them as well. It appears as though I have the same issue even replacing the parts that I did.

Any help would be appreciated thanks

 

[gimpyrobb]

Splines long enough to go all the way in the chunk? That would be the easiest imho. Gets complicated after that.

Also, i saw a post by Gerhard about having to "dimple" some rear seals, might apply to the front too.

 

[Floridianson]

Can I see a pic of the other side of that axle seal retainer.

 

[4XDesign]

Can I see a pic of the other side of that axle seal retainer.

Yes I'll get a picture of the other side of the retainer. According to my parts guy it is the one I need for the Spicer type joint. Also it appears as though the stub shaft going into the back of the spindle is where the issue appeared to be.

Almost to like the stub shaft did not match the taper on the back of the spindle. I've never experienced needing to machine a spindle to get an axle shaft a fit properly. Also I am not sure how I would verify that the spline is long enough to fit completely into the axle 3rd member.

 

[4XDesign]

Requested pictures

This is how far the axle has been assembled. Also when you grab the axle shaft protruding out of the end of the spindle it is very tight. I have no play at all which I am used to having a slight bit of movement there. I had to put a three-quarter inch drive ratchet on the yoke to turn it to get the axle shafts to move.

 

[4XDesign]

I am not sure if when I installed the spindle bushings they mushroomed slightly from driving them in which would make a extremely tight fit for the axle shaft?

 

[Floridianson]

Thanks for the pic. Looks like your installing the axle seal the correct way but are you getting it bottomed out on the housing? Do believe you can switch out Timken axles for Spicer without any problems.
Does your axle have a removable spacer. Looks like the Timken has two removable washer /spacers and the Spicer does not. If someone installed the spacers #U on the TM on a Spicer that maybe could cause a problem. If I remember the Spicer axle only has one welded to the inner axle shaft that is right next to the axle seal and retainer or U joint.

 

[4XDesign]

Thanks for the pic. Looks like your installing the axle seal the correct way but are you getting it bottomed out on the housing? Do believe you can switch out Timken axles for Spicer without any problems.
Does your axle have a removable spacer. Looks like the Timken has two removable washer /spacers and the Spicer does not. If someone installed the spacers #U on the TM on a Spicer that maybe could cause a problem. If I remember the Spicer axle only has one welded to the inner axle shaft that is right next to the axle seal and retainer or U joint.

The axle spacer marked U is the axle ring I was referencing earlier. There were two installed on the axle shafts, one thick one on inner and a thinner one at the spindle on stub shaft.

 

[Floridianson]

If your axle data plate says Rockwell over Timken then it has or had the ball type. If the tag says Rockwell over Rockwell it had the U joint style axles installed.
Can you washers be removed or are they welded on?

 

[4XDesign]

If your axle data plate says Rockwell over Timken then it has or had the ball type. If the tag says Rockwell over Rockwell it had the U joint style axles installed.
Can you washers be removed or are they welded on?

OK thank you I will check on the data plate to see what I find and I believe the washers can be removed.

 

[gringeltaube]

........... Also when you grab the axle shaft protruding out of the end of the spindle it is very tight. I have no play at all which I am used to having a slight bit of movement there.

Just to clarify: you are trying to install U-joint axle shafts - and corresponding (aftermarket) seal retainers - in an early style front axle?
If so, I have been there, too... even posted about it, somewhere...

Obviously the binding occurs because the stub axle shaft is longer than the actual distance spindle-to-seal retainer, provided that the retainer was fully seated, of course.
So you still have to "create a bit more room" in there...

This picture shows the difference between the early-style CV-axles and the U-joint axles; the latter needing almost 1/4" more space:
To compensate, the early seal retainers had that extra spacer/ thrust washer:


Your solution: Install some thin washers in between spindle and knuckle, until you can feel just a bit of (axial) play, at any turning angle. Then put the retainer in a lathe and remove just as much material from its front face. Clean and dry its seat in the axle tube, apply some RTV and reinstall retainer.
World will be round again...


Related thread: https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?140103-Knuckle-Dilemma-1952-M35/page2

 

[sandcobra164]

I never went through this situation myself but I want to give a Big Thanks to Gringletaube for his insight on the problem. He has amazed me with many of his posts. 4XDesign, please respond if his advice helps fix your situation.

 

[Floridianson]

Thanks G. If the seal retainer plate is the difference and looks like one of his is trashed then maybe just getting two new correct retainer plates?

 

[4XDesign]

Just to clarify: you are trying to install U-joint axle shafts - and corresponding (aftermarket) seal retainers - in an early style front axle?
If so, I have been there, too... even posted about it, somewhere...

Obviously the binding occurs because the stub axle shaft is longer than the actual distance spindle-to-seal retainer, provided that the retainer was fully seated, of course.
So you still have to "create a bit more room" in there...

This picture shows the difference between the early-style CV-axles and the U-joint axles; the latter needing almost 1/4" more space: View attachment 729623
To compensate, the early seal retainers had that extra spacer/ thrust washer: View attachment 729629


Your solution: Install some thin washers in between spindle and knuckle, until you can feel just a bit of (axial) play, at any turning angle. Then put the retainer in a lathe and remove just as much material from its front face. Clean and dry its seat in the axle tube, apply some RTV and reinstall retainer.
World will be round again...


Related thread: https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?140103-Knuckle-Dilemma-1952-M35/page2

Hey Mr G I was hoping you'd read this and chime in. I'm not trying to swap an early shaft for a spicer. I did not know if this was something a prior owner may have tried to do. According to my parts guy with the seal retainer I installed should be for the Spicer type of joint. It does not have a raised portion on the knuckle side. Also the shaft had a thin washer at the spindle. I am going to pull it back apart today to see what I come up with. Also I can cycle the steering lock to lock both directions by hand without any binding. When I did do a swap in the past for the Spicer new style replacing a Bendix the axle shaft was so tight you could not move the steering until you clearanced the spindle and/or the retainer.

 

[4XDesign]

OK this is where I am so far. I removed the spindle and removed the inner axle washer, the one that is located at the retainer. I reinstalled the spindle and the axle shaft is still extremely tight. After paying close attention while installing the spindle it appears as though it is on an angle as it goes in. Tight at the bottom and a space at the top.

After I tightened the spindle in place using a few nuts. This is what the axle shaft looks like in the end of the spindle. It is forced to one side and has a lot of pressure on it. As much as I hate to say it I think this truck left the ground at some point before I got it and both spindles are bent. This will help explain everything.... I don't have a lathe or any great fixture to chuck it up in to put a dial indicator on it to see how far out they are but I am concerned that if the spindles are bent the house and could be tweaked as well. This would also explain why the seal retainers were worn on the bottom making them into an egg shape. Not an extreme egg shape but at least you could see a wear towards the bottom of them.

This is the list of things I have repaired or replaced on this truck it is literally been the worst truck I've ever had. And I believe I have had 20 so far.

Rear axle Rear wheel cylinders Brake hoses Fuel pump Master cylinder Air packHead gasketsNew radiator hoses New RadiatorNew belts Fdc delete Flame heater delete HH o rings Alternator New rear suspension Add rear shocksFix cab New passenger doorNew windshields Paint truck New seats Re degree perches for caster angle Add power steering New tilt column Change all filters 6 total Rear main seal New used clutch

 

[Floridianson]

Did you install the button on top of the knuckle under the control arm. Look at the picture I posted before and I circled it. If you don't put the button spacer on top that can happen. It's the number R on the pic.

 

[4XDesign]

Did you install the button on top of the knuckle under the control arm. Look at the picture I posted before and I circled it. If you don't put the button spacer on top that can happen. It's the number R on the pic.

I did not actually remove the knuckles from the axle. But based on some of the other work that was done on the truck prior to me getting it this could very well be the issue. Thank you very much and I will check it out and respond back with my findings.

 

[Floridianson]

Button on the bottom will lower the knuckle Assy. On top it will raise it to where it is supposed to be.

 

[4XDesign]

Button on the bottom will lower the knuckle Assy. On top it will raise it to where it is supposed to be.

Thanks to everyone for the help. The buttons were on the bottom so thank you James for all your insight. Looks like I'll make it to the tractor pull after all... well hope so anyway.

 

[Floridianson]

Glad to help and there was only one other time I remember this happened. Funny I corrected my #7 post and took out asking about the shim washers as my thoughts were only looking at the seal retainer. You can see in the pic I already had the shim washers circled.