Bad Bill for Title Military Surplus Off Road Moves to Virginia Senate

[BKubu]

I think it would make sense to pressure everyone to help. It is in GP's interest to lobby the states. If guys stop buying their trucks, or bid less, they lose money. If states crack down on HMMWVs, the dealers who sell them will lose money. The guys who bought them, and now have on-road titles (the ones released with off-road use only titles), would also be wise to be getting involved here. I think this problem is only now dawning on the majority of owners and sellers of HMMWVs that came out of GP (off-road use only; not the guys who bought trucks with on-road titles). The worst part of this is that many of us who don't own HMMWVs are also being drawn into this. How many states have stated that ALL military trucks came out for off-road use only? I wonder where they got that from?!?! None of the trucks I have ever owned have come out with off-road use only stipulations...NONE of them.

 

[L1A1]

undysworld, Sorry you weren't in on this conversation. I started it on the Politics thread, but it got moved here (and renamed) when it was combined with another thread. I'd have clued you in, but I didn't want to be a pest.

That's interesting. I would have noticed it sooner if it had been up in the politics forum & not renamed..........
Just posted a link to this thread over on G503.
Matt

 

[undysworld]

Here is the problem. That HMMWV has a high probability of having a washed title. That means, it came out with an off-road use only title, and someone washed it in a title friendly state. Now, you have it. If someone has problems with THEIR state...their state rejects the title you gave them, they are coming back to the seller. They will say, "My DMV rejected the title you gave me. They told me it was for off road use only. Can you send me the paperwork proving that this truck was sold for on road use." You won't be able to do that. You'll tell them that the guy you bought it from sold you it with an on road title. When push comes to shove...through a lawyer...it probably will come out that the truck was released with an off-road use only title. Then, he sues you...and you sue the guy you bought it from. That's the way I see this going down. There are literally thousands of HMMWVs out there; only a small percentage have clean titles. Most have come through GP with "off-road use only" titles.

There is some probability, but I don't know if it's fair to call it high. Many (perhaps most?) ORUO HMMWV's have remained off-road.

Nevertheless, initially many HMMWVs were sold with clear (not ORUO) SF-97s. A clear SF-97 means the US Govt. decided that the vehicle was eligible to be titled and registered for on-road use, and sold it under those terms. Subsequent sales of other HMMWVs as ORUO does not alter the terms and conditions of the earlier sales, meaning those earlier vehicles remain legal.

Denying registration to the legal ones, based on later unrelated restricted sales, constitutes a taking of the value of the legal ones. (ORUO vehicles are worth less.) Denying registration to those legal HMMWVs is a taking that the your DOT has initiated, and they ought to be required to show cause.

A clear US state title is issued when a vehicle meets the title & registration requirements of a state. The US Constitution requires that each state recognize records and acts of each other state. So a clear state title should be recognized, unless the receiving state shows reason to not recognize it. It should be DOT's responsibility to prove the vehicle was ORUO, rather than the owner's to prove it is legal.

DOT's were charged with maintaining a system of instant title-verification for out-of-state titles, under 49USC30502 (whether they actually do it or not). This means that DOT's are supposed to verify the validity of any out-of-state title submitted to them. If it's an in-state title, well then they've already to the records. Such research could surely include checking for any ORUO restrictions on prior titles or SF-97.

The US govt. sold the HMMWVs, and undoubtedly kept VIN records of those sold without restrictions and those sold as ORUO. DOT could research the vehicle through DOD records, I suspect.

 

[Suprman]

Any vehicle registered, regardless of vin or serial number, should be in the nationwide dmv system and info can be pulled up by any state/local authority. I don’t believe it will show type of document used to register the vehicle though. Just that it is registered, to who and type of reg. All of the humvees in question were purchased from the US Gov, per contract, by Ironplanet doing business as Govplanet. A private company. Everyone who purchased one of these humvees, bought it from a private company and not the Gov. The hold harmless agreement is between the auction high bidder and Govplanet, a private company. The buyer is given the option, but not forced to purchase a title or sf97 with the truck purchase. If the buyer chooses no documentation, then none is produced for the truck. If the gov was so dead set against humvees being road registered they would have done more to prevent it from the beginning. Everyone knew they would find their way on road. The gov left it up to the individual states. Many states have no problem with the humvees. Govplanet will auction off on road reg humvees, for private sellers, that were previously purchased from their own auctions. It’s a grey area. But if a buyer bought a humvee and took no paperwork with it, and then registered it, they have done nothing wrong.

 

[c2369zulu]

Hello all.
I sure hate to see this bill on the table now that I am interested in finally buying an M998 Humvee. This is my first post on the site and I hope this was not already covered as I thought I read through everything and did not see it, but if the bill passes, do you have the "option" to register as either an Antique with the 250 mile radius for recreational driving, or as a MSV with only 125 mile radius for recreational driving? Also it seems the bill mentions that current unrestricted plates continue under the current owner, but if transferred after 1/1/19, the new owner can only register as antique or MSV, but what if a dealer is selling the vehicle and the "1 owner" prior was the Military? Does that mean the road title after the dealer has to be registered as a MSV now? Thanks.

 

[98G]

Hello all.
I sure hate to see this bill on the table now that I am interested in finally buying an M998 Humvee. This is my first post on the site and I hope this was not already covered as I thought I read through everything and did not see it, but if the bill passes, do you have the "option" to register as either an Antique with the 250 mile radius for recreational driving, or as a MSV with only 125 mile radius for recreational driving? Also it seems the bill mentions that current unrestricted plates continue under the current owner, but if transferred after 1/1/19, the new owner can only register as antique or MSV, but what if a dealer is selling the vehicle and the "1 owner" prior was the Military? Does that mean the road title after the dealer has to be registered as a MSV now? Thanks.

Here's my take on it. Free advice and probably worth what you pay for it -

The VA law looks designed to relegate MV's to this severely restricted plate and that plate only. The state police have stated they'll fail any MV presented to them for inspection.

So, unless you're OK with that restricted plate don't buy any MV with the intent of registration in VA. This applies all the more so to hmmwv's.

(I have added VA to the list of places I'll never consider living)

 

[MaverickH1]

Hello all.
I sure hate to see this bill on the table now that I am interested in finally buying an M998 Humvee. This is my first post on the site and I hope this was not already covered as I thought I read through everything and did not see it, but if the bill passes, do you have the "option" to register as either an Antique with the 250 mile radius for recreational driving, or as a MSV with only 125 mile radius for recreational driving? Also it seems the bill mentions that current unrestricted plates continue under the current owner, but if transferred after 1/1/19, the new owner can only register as antique or MSV, but what if a dealer is selling the vehicle and the "1 owner" prior was the Military? Does that mean the road title after the dealer has to be registered as a MSV now? Thanks.

The new bill specifically says the vehicles can't be registered as antiques. I would assume that was the only plate option you can get until it gets changed.

 

[Navo]

What are the restrictions on the Military plate?

 

[Bulldogger]

What are the restrictions on the Military plate?

Basically the same as antique plates; limited travel distance and timing, can't use as a daily driver is the bottom line.

It will be another year before it takes effect. There may be some push to adjust the wording, particularly to take some of VASP's inspection authority away and allow safety inspections, and thus standards tags and driving. That's some months away before a push needs to be planned.

BDGR

 

[Navo]

Basically the same as antique plates; limited travel distance and timing, can't use as a daily driver is the bottom line.

It will be another year before it takes effect. There may be some push to adjust the wording, particularly to take some of VASP's inspection authority away and allow safety inspections, and thus standards tags and driving. That's some months away before a push needs to be planned.

BDGR

Ok so say I’m just gonna drive it around town etc, like a Sunday driver. Maybe a trip to Home Depot I should be ok with the military plate worse case scenario. I’m about to purchase a M998 now, and if I understand correctly, I can get normal tags now and be grandfathered in after 1/1/19 until if and when I sell the truck.

 

[MaverickH1]

Ok so say I’m just gonna drive it around town etc, like a Sunday driver. Maybe a trip to Home Depot I should be ok with the military plate worse case scenario. I’m about to purchase a M998 now, and if I understand correctly, I can get normal tags now and be grandfathered in after 1/1/19 until if and when I sell the truck.

This is what sucks about the bill. It gives all power of interpretation to the officer who pulls you over and whether or not the judge agrees with him. And then poof, 5 years of use gone.

It's an absolutely horrible bill in its wording.

 

[Bulldogger]

Ok so say I’m just gonna drive it around town etc, like a Sunday driver. Maybe a trip to Home Depot I should be ok with the military plate worse case scenario. I’m about to purchase a M998 now, and if I understand correctly, I can get normal tags now and be grandfathered in after 1/1/19 until if and when I sell the truck.

It can take some wheeling and dealing today with DMV, it varies by office and region. It's not assured. Some use alternate paths, from second owners. Discussion of ways to get around office policies is not allowed here so I won't elaborate. You should be able to get tags one way or the other, yes. It takes work because it is not a simple title transfer like 99% of DMV window transactions, that's the challenge. DMV employees like to turn down anything that's not run-of-the-mill. If you get into the position of actually being in a titling situation, PM me, I'll tell you what worked for me (besides being VERY polite at the window!).

At the end, yes, antique tags still allow you to drive to occasional events, shows, post-maintenance (which is ALWAYS the case with a HMMWV, right?) and non-daily duties. If you get spotted every morning by a patrol officer with antique tags on, you're eligible for being stopped same as any other vehicle with antique tags seen too-often. I live in a suburb/city environment, near enough to Maryland that I see a lot of MD tags, obviously titled there because MD does not have personal property tax on cars. So the cops ARE looking for odd plates and driving patterns, like the dozens of cars always parked and driven to-from my Fairfax suburb but with MD tags...

PM me if you'd like more intel. You have a few other SS members who are HMMWV owners down in the Tidewater area that could also chime in with their local office experiences.

Bulldogger

 

[98G]

Ok so say I’m just gonna drive it around town etc, like a Sunday driver. Maybe a trip to Home Depot I should be ok with the military plate worse case scenario. I’m about to purchase a M998 now, and if I understand correctly, I can get normal tags now and be grandfathered in after 1/1/19 until if and when I sell the truck.

I wouldnt risk it. That trip to Home Depot is a *CRIME*, not just a ticket, if you get caught.

 

[Navo]

Just got back from DMV. According to DMV (in an email they read to me) it can not be registered in Va. because it does not meet federal safety standards. I saw the email and it said Am General also known as a Humvee..... not even as antique cause it needs to registered for the road.

 

[Navo]

And the title I had was from a clear title from Missouri....

 

[mdainsd]

Viewing this from the left coast, for what its worth. Not intending to cause hard feeling, but I am curious.
How much of this came about from people trying to game the system, by registering off road use only vehicles for on road unrestricted use?

 

[L1A1]

Viewing this from the left coast, for what its worth. Not intending to cause hard feeling, but I am curious.
How much of this came about from people trying to game the system, by registering off road use only vehicles for on road unrestricted use?

Wondered that myself. I (was) hesitant to buy one of the HMMWVs being sold here or on eba.... because of concerns with 'washed" titles being used. I'd really like to help fight this bill but am not sure how to go about doing that. If someone could help by pointing me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated.
Matt

 

[L1A1]

Just got back from DMV. According to DMV (in an email they read to me) it can not be registered in Va. because it does not meet federal safety standards. I saw the email and it said Am General also known as a Humvee..... not even as antique cause it needs to registered for the road.

That (email) must have just happened because I went to the DMV a few months back to inquire about getting an "on road" title for an M998 and what they told me was very promising. Wonder what WVDMV's attitude is towards HMMWV is.... This state used to be fun & very friendly towards MVs...Really it was...

Matt

 

[c2369zulu]

I too put in an online inquiry a couple of days ago to Virginia DMV and the response I got back today was that Humvees are considered "Off Road" vehicles which did not meet FMVSS and could not be registered or titled in the COV by the DMV regardless of whether another state titled the vehicle. They also said they do not accept SF-97 forms. If it was designed for off road use only, why the heck would you put headlights, a speedometer, brake lights, marker lights, etc. on it? Couldn't one argue that there are many antique plated vehicles before 1967 that also are on the road and do not meet FMVSS? Does anyone know what aspect of FMVSS the Humvee does not pass? Is the manufacturers no. on a humvee the same as a VIN no? If so, it is stated on DMV.org that the VIN number was created in 1954 and would be included on "all road vehicles". Might be a stretch...

 

[c2369zulu]

Navo, I think they showed you the same email they forwarded me....