Bad Bill for Title Military Surplus Off Road Moves to Virginia Senate

[MaverickH1]

Note the change is only with titles marked "off road use only" and you have to 2019 to be "grandfathered" in.

Nothing else but HMMWV is coming through with "off road use only" on the Bill of Sale or the SF97 title that I know of, so this will not apply to anything but HMMWV at this time.

The guy that buys one after 19....including from a person previously grandfathered, will have only the restricted plates.

Moderator could put this in the above thread...very relevant.

Not entirely true. They have no idea what they're talking about. The DMV and the State Police has a much broader definition of which military vehicles were "designed for off road use".

The bill is worded horribly and vaguely. And it doesn't matter what Carrico or anyone else says in congress until we end up possibly having to go to court over this about meaning.

 

[tobyS]

Is there more to it than what passed in your video?

 

[tobyS]

No, they were NOT designed SOLELY for off road use. They are on the road all the time and were designed to solve a problem of former Jeeps....rollover. That a vehicle can be taken off road and used does not make it "off road only"...it makes it multi-purpose.

 

[MaverickH1]

No, they were NOT designed SOLELY for off road use. They are on the road all the time and were designed to solve a problem of former Jeeps....rollover. That a vehicle can be taken off road and used does not make it "off road only".

I'm trying to help you understand how the DMV and VA State Police AND THE LEGISLATORS understand the issue.

There's no value in trying to convince me. I know they weren't designed for Off Road Use Only. They are road vehicles designed with Off Road Capability. And that's a huge difference.

 

[MaverickH1]

Is there more to it than what passed in your video?

There's the subcommittee meetings, conversations with senators on the side before and after that committee hearing, conversations with the State Trooper supposedly in charge of safety inspections in Virginia, phone calls with senators, e-mails with them, conversations with the bill's sponsor in the house, etc.

I THINK it's all in this thread...

I'll try to upload the Subcommittee video to YouTube.

 

[tobyS]

So is there other legislation coming up?

Obvious legislative intent is to give current owners some leeway that extends indefinitely as long as the vehicle is registered/licensed.

 

[tobyS]

But is there other legislation?

I understand what you are saying with all the steps to get legislation passed, but if what I saw in the video is all that was passed, it is very narrow indeed and looked reasonable.

But let me be clear, my interest is not HMMWV but the other recently sold trucks that nobody has ever agreed (up front) that they were "off road use only".

 

[bachman502]

So with all the confusion it’s all going to depend on the inspection station. Whether or not he wants to put an inspection sticker on your truck or not. This will be interesting. I’ll be paying attention to the city of Virginia Beach’s FMTV. I’ll see if it gets an inspection sticker on it every year.

 

[undysworld]

Maverick,

I just saw this thread. Too bad it wasn't on the Politics subforum before this. Sorry to hear what's gone on already. Hopefully I didn't miss too much in reading this thread over.
As I understand it, the bill is passed and off to the gov.??? Politics and legislation can be enormously frustrating pursuits at times.

Interesting video. Though probably well-intended, they're poorly-informed.
It sounds as if your DOT is behind things, both supporting the bill and perhaps supplying the text. So I assume you've got a fight on your hands.
Is there an avenue to appeal this? I assume you are familiar with the MIL-STD-1180-B that lists the equipment standards that military vehicles must meet and gives the correlated FMVSS? ...Or the Wis. Appeal Court ruling that accepted the MIL-STD-1180-B as showing that military vehicles (up to and including 5-ton variants) essentially met FMVSS?
Does your State Patrol do other vehicle inspections (salvage, rebuilt, homebuilt, etc.), and for what equipment (FMVSS or state requirements)? They aren't authorized to inspect for FMVSS requirements, to my knowledge. But passing an inspection to meet state equipment standards is probably feasible.
If this is over FMVSS Cert. Labels, then lots of other vehicles are potential victims: pre-1969, grey-market or antique (over 25 yr.) imports, homebuilts, vehicles with repainted or replaced driver's doors. You may find lots of additional supporters in these groups, and you may need a lot of support to oppose DOT (or whoever is behind the substituted bill). I'd start building a support base, if I were you.
Remember that laws get changed all the time, and if this one gets signed, you can return next legislative session and try to make it right. It's not that uncommon to get a bill that's not perfect.
I'd start talking with owner's legislators asap to discuss the problem and see what can be done next. Do they have any contact in the gov.'s office, to perhaps make a last-ditch appeal to not pass it? Will they sponsor a bill to fix things?

 

[AndyC]

I was a Va. safety inspector for over 25 yrs. The vehicle being inspected needs to be inspected to the rules of the safety manual. Not to be failed for an off road stamp. If the vehicle meets all safety provisions in the inspection manual than it should pass inspection!

 

[Navo]

The amendment passed to give to 2019. You have until 2019 to be considered "grandfathered". If you let it lapse after that or sell it, it is under the new plate rules from then on. Does not affect any that are not marked "off road only".

You got off lucky if this is all of it.

If the title doesn’t say off road on it and I decide to sell it in 5 years, another person from Virginia could buy it no problems? an

 

[Navo]

If the title doesn’t say off road on it and I decide to sell it in 5 years, another person from Virginia could buy it no problems? an

Or if I just get an antique plate? I know it has restrictions on miles etc. but will only have to be inspected once.

 

[donkren]

undysworld, Sorry you weren't in on this conversation. I started it on the Politics thread, but it got moved here (and renamed) when it was combined with another thread. I'd have clued you in, but I didn't want to be a pest.

 

[MaverickH1]

I was a Va. safety inspector for over 25 yrs. The vehicle being inspected needs to be inspected to the rules of the safety manual. Not to be failed for an off road stamp. If the vehicle meets all safety provisions in the inspection manual than it should pass inspection!

They changed the wording in the Administrative code in September of last year. The State Police are saying that vehicles are REQUIRED to have an FMVSS sticker as the first inspection item. Retraining is "supposed" to be coming later this year. I have a few inspectors on the lookout for the bulletin so I can see it when they get it.

 

[tobyS]

If the title doesn’t say off road on it and I decide to sell it in 5 years, another person from Virginia could buy it no problems? an

Yes, someone could buy it, but with the new restrictions on use. At least after 2019. If they get it in before then and don't let it lapse, then it should be "grandfathered".....wow....talk about creating something hard to keep track of for the DMV.

 

[Navo]

And the new restrictions being off road use only no matter what because of the state police saying they don’t have the FMVSS stickers?

 

[Navo]

Yes, someone could buy it, but with the new restrictions on use. At least after 2019. If they get it in before then and don't let it lapse, then it should be "grandfathered".....wow....talk about creating something hard to keep track of for the DMV.

I guess i’m a little confused and sorry if I’m slow...

If I buy a M998 say from Utah. It currently is registered and has an unrestricted title and is 100% road legal in the state of Utah with plates. If I purchase said vehicle and take it to DMV here in VA, wouldn’t they just give me a new title with my name on it like any other out of state vehicle purchase? I’m not bringing them a SF97 with the “Off Road Only” stamp. This is just a normal in unrestrictive title. With that being said, I could get normal plates and have to do the yearly inspection, which as I understand it that’s where the VA state inspections become a problem with the FMVSS sticker. However, if I get antique plates there is just a one time inspection and plates are issued, with the 250 mile limitation etc.

What is the restricted plate after 2019? What are it’s limitations? Maybe I missed that part.

With that all being said, the option stands to sell to a non va resident with no issues i’m assuming on there end.

Thanks for your help!

 

[BKubu]

I guess i’m a little confused and sorry if I’m slow...

If I buy a M998 say from Utah. It currently is registered and has an unrestricted title and is 100% road legal in the state of Utah with plates. If I purchase said vehicle and take it to DMV here in VA, wouldn’t they just give me a new title with my name on it like any other out of state vehicle purchase? I’m not bringing them a SF97 with the “Off Road Only” stamp. This is just a normal in unrestrictive title. With that being said, I could get normal plates and have to do the yearly inspection, which as I understand it that’s where the VA state inspections become a problem with the FMVSS sticker. However, if I get antique plates there is just a one time inspection and plates are issued, with the 250 mile limitation etc.

What is the restricted plate after 2019? What are it’s limitations? Maybe I missed that part.

With that all being said, the option stands to sell to a non va resident with no issues i’m assuming on there end.

Thanks for your help!

Here is the problem. That HMMWV has a high probability of having a washed title. That means, it came out with an off-road use only title, and someone washed it in a title friendly state. Now, you have it. If someone has problems with THEIR state...their state rejects the title you gave them, they are coming back to the seller. They will say, "My DMV rejected the title you gave me. They told me it was for off road use only. Can you send me the paperwork proving that this truck was sold for on road use." You won't be able to do that. You'll tell them that the guy you bought it from sold you it with an on road title. When push comes to shove...through a lawyer...it probably will come out that the truck was released with an off-road use only title. Then, he sues you...and you sue the guy you bought it from. That's the way I see this going down. There are literally thousands of HMMWVs out there; only a small percentage have clean titles. Most have come through GP with "off-road use only" titles.

 

[Flyingvan911]

The other issue I see is once VA stamps the title as Off-road Use Only, if the vehicle is taken to another state the owner might have trouble with registration due to the stamped title from VA.

 

[CARMAN]

So from what I gather we should now pressure the auction companies supporting the government liquidations to remove any "off road only" language from titles or sales paperwork. It seems that only those titles will be restricted.