Best Generator for Veg or WVO

[cruiserdar]

Hello...long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a few civvy genny's for camping and power outages, but all are gas...Gas is a pain to store and I feel like I need to start them, exercise and run em dry every month or so. I have a lot of processed WVO I would like to be able to use in a long term situation as well as normal diesel and fuel oil short term. I was considering 5 or 10 K's (Mep 002's and 003's), as well as the little 3k's. (Mep 701's and 016D's) I figure in a SHTF scenario I will probably alter my electricity needs long term, but is a 3-5 K would run my house if I was smart about it for short term use? I would rather go smaller....just for the lower fuel consumption. I know these genny's are underated....my big gas genny is a Kohler 10K with a 4 cyl industrial ford engine....It will run the house 200 feet away through 10 gauge (Too small)....I bumped up the voltage to make of for line loss.

Mostly I am concerned with injection pump, injectors and filter robustness and ease of acquisition of replacements.

Please do not tell me how bad of an idea this is...The Veg would only be for a long term situation. Thanks for the help.

 

[Monty]

I've been wondering the same thing, I purchased an Mep 002 to run my house. Lets clarify that I do not intend to run everything but 50amps will allow me to run everything except my AC.

My thought would be to filter waste motor oil down to 3 micron or better then cut it with diesel to thin it out. I'm not sure if this will work but I have access to a bunch of waste oil and would like to try it.
I'm also looking into purchasing fuel bulk (off road diesel) from the local COOP since it dosen't get road taxed, that would allow me to keep the cost down a little.

Anyone else try this?

 

[Carl_in_NH]

Injector pumps for the 002A and 003A are out there (it's the same pump model on both gensets), but be advised only on the surplus market (pulls, and some pricey rebuilt units). This pump has been discontinued AMBAC. As for injectors themselves, I don't know the answer. Parts for the pumps are available from AMBAC - but bring your wallet; they are some of the highest priced parts you'll find.

If you're in it for the long haul, then picking up a genset and a parts set would be the best approach. I've got an MEP-003A and I expect to get another one, so I ended up picking up spare engines to insure a long term source of supply of repair parts.

 

[TexAndy]

Injector pumps for the 002A and 003A are out there (it's the same pump model on both gensets), but be advised only on the surplus market (pulls, and some pricey rebuilt units). This pump has been discontinued AMBAC. As for injectors themselves, I don't know the answer. Parts for the pumps are available from AMBAC - but bring your wallet; they are some of the highest priced parts you'll find.

If you're in it for the long haul, then picking up a genset and a parts set would be the best approach. I've got an MEP-003A and I expect to get another one, so I ended up picking up spare engines to insure a long term source of supply of repair parts.

Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to know how to rebuild the alternator, too. And have spare electronics handy...

As far as burning wmo or wvo in a generator... I dunno. I've been told that burning waste veggie oil in a diesel engine is a "bad idea" because burned vegetable oil tends to act like boiled linseed oil when it dries. It polymerizes into a hard finish.

Wmo might be a better bet.

Truly tho, I think the best bet for operating electric equipment that has to be run would be solar panels on a battery bank. Wouldn't take too much to be able to run a freezer, refrigerator, and a water pump.

The generator might just be for when you want to run power tools in your shop.

 

[Carl_in_NH]

Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to know how to rebuild the alternator, too. And have spare electronics handy...

I already do; for me, the electronics repair and rebuilding part is the easy thing to handle. Missing or broken engine parts are more serious. YMMV.

 

[cruiserdar]

WOW good feedback so far! I know most of these units are air cooled...do they have remote oil coolers on them? It would allow for easy plumbing of a liquid to liquid heater / cooler for wvo.....Also is is amazing how thinning your oil (whetever type) with Diesel or heating oil helps the entire process.

 

[Speddmon]

Yes, they do have an oil cooler mounted inside the rear cover right above the blower wheel.

 

[cruiserdar]

Cool good to know. I have searched, but many of the posts are old....what is a fair price, and what is to much for a 3-5k with under 500 hrs

 

[Speddmon]

Hello...long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a few civvy genny's for camping and power outages, but all are gas...Gas is a pain to store and I feel like I need to start them, exercise and run em dry every month or so. I have a lot of processed WVO I would like to be able to use in a long term situation as well as normal diesel and fuel oil short term. I was considering 5 or 10 K's (Mep 002's and 003's), as well as the little 3k's. (Mep 701's and 016D's) I figure in a SHTF scenario I will probably alter my electricity needs long term, but is a 3-5 K would run my house if I was smart about it for short term use? I would rather go smaller....just for the lower fuel consumption. I know these genny's are underated....my big gas genny is a Kohler 10K with a 4 cyl industrial ford engine....It will run the house 200 feet away through 10 gauge (Too small)....I bumped up the voltage to make of for line loss.

Mostly I am concerned with injection pump, injectors and filter robustness and ease of acquisition of replacements.

Please do not tell me how bad of an idea this is...The Veg would only be for a long term situation. Thanks for the help.

Like Carl said, the IP parts are out there and rather pricey. Injectors can be bought used from some surplus dealers. They are a Yanmar injector, but I have no idea if they are still available new or not. I doubt it though. As far as filters go, the fuel filters are widely available at NAPA and another member recently found the OEM Fram filters from race-mart.com. Or you could just replace the OEM housings with a couple of spin on filter bases and run whatever fuel filters/water separators you like. As for the oil filters, they are available from NAPA as well, but you will need to buy a separate o-ring for the filter can, as the one that comes with the filter is not the correct ring. The OEM Fram filters are available at race-mart.com also but I have no idea if they come with the correct o-ring or not.

And as a different option for the oil filters, I recently posted in the classified section that I have available a spin-on converstion kit for the oil filter for the MEP-003a and MEP-002a sets. It replaces the oil canister and need to search for the o-rings with a very commonly available spin-on filter.

I have no experience with the 701s and 016's, but I believe they are not capable of 120/240 volt output in their stock configuration. I have read that a jumper is all that is needed to make the voltages available, but I can't say that with 100% accuracy.

 

[Isaac-1]

Just a couple of notes, I have a MEP-701a I paid about $400 for it last year with about 900 hours on the meter from the local GL site, typical ebay asking price for known running units is $1,200 - 1,600. If you look at the recent message thread about fair price for MEP-002a / MEP-003a's you will see several comments plus ending prices for a recent GL sale of mostly very low hour rebuilds. Included in that same sale, but I don't think mentioned in the message thread was a single MEP-701a with about 800 hours on the meter, sold for about $800. There are several variants of these same basic 3kw 60 hz 3600 rpm generators (all share the same generator end), the best I have been able to determine they are as follows:

MEP-016A / MEP-016C - Gasoline powered 4 cylinder Mil Std Engine unit

MEP-016B - same generator end as the A and C, but different frame, control box and with 1 cylinder special Onan diesel almost exclusive to this model family

MEP-701a - MEP-016B retrofitted with an ASK housing (why the ASK version gets a new number on this unit and not on the MEP-002 / MEP-003 who knows, maybe beause of mods needed to be done included electric taps for the electric cooling fans, and exhuast rerouting) (on mine the 016B label under the cover shows it was built about a year and a half before the date on the 701a label)

MEP-016D - MEP-016C (maybe A also) repowered usualy in the late 1990's - mid 2000's with a 24V military version of a common 1 cylinder Yanmar diesel (includes electric and pull start, the Onan in the 016B is 24v electric start only )

MEP-016E - MEP-016B repowered with the same Yanmar, probably the least common

I have never seen a 701a / ASK version with the Yanmar, and don't know if it is possible due to ducting, etc.

Ike

p.s. the 016B/701a has a remote oil cooler, also published fuel economy is very similar to the MEP-002, maybe just a little better, but at lower output, probably due to being a 1 cylinder 3600 rpm unit.

p.p.s As Spedmon mentioned 120/240 single phase is not available stock (switch positions are single phase 120V only, 240V only, 3 phase 120V only and 120/208 V ) , I have exchanged messages with someone that has modified one of these units by adding a single jumper wire while the selector switch is in 240V mode to get 120/240 single phase, the danger of this is potential of letting the smoke out if someone turns the switch without removing the jumper. Personally I leave mine in 120V only mode, as it I find it more practical to have a single full 3KW+ connection than trying to load balance 2 120V 1.5KW legs.

 

[Bill W]

I had the injectors rebuilt on my first 003a back in 2000 and they were bosch injectors. The rebuilder ( Everglades diesel injection ) asked me how hot did my genset get as the injectors were pretty scored up, when I told him it was a aircooled onan/cummins he said Oh that explains it as air cooled run much hotter then liquid cooled, long story short is that these must be a common injectors as the mechanic did not ask before hand what they went to when I dropped them off and they had the parts in stock.

 

[Speddmon]

That's interesting Bill, The spare injectors I have are stamped Yanmar. It's good to know that Bosch made some too....maybe they are still in production?????

 

[cruiserdar]

Thanks for all the info guy's I am leaning towards the MEP 002A 5K...Especially since it looks like you can get ahold of replacement injectors and ip's. Noise is not much of an issue since the Genny will be out in my barn, and when my neighbors fire up their Home Depot specials....I can't even hear mine.

My Commercial / Marine kohler is a 10k but only has 40 amp breakers....The 002A has 50 amp if I am not mistaken...so it in real world use probably will outperform the Kohler. So just to confirm the 002A has a 3 or 4 cyl Yanmar?

 

[Speddmon]

The MEP-002a is a 2 cylinder Onan/Cummins DJ series (70 C.I.D.)...no longer made, and very few "new" engine parts available. But, they are actually very, very reliable!!

 

[cruiserdar]

Great thanks for the clarification For some reason I was thinking the larger ones were Yanmars as well....I have a Yanmar in my Compact tractor, and many customers have them as well in their equipment...solid engines to be sure. But I am a way bigger Cummins fan....I have seen several larger genny's that have 6 cyl diesels...i figured they were probably cummins as well...but the pictures never showed the valve covers to be sure...I would love to get a 4bt or 6bt cummins for a transplant project

 

[Carl_in_NH]

These Onan's have much more in the way of genetic ties to Studebaker than Cummins; they are a design that dates back to that era of Onan ownership.

They are also a good, solidly build engine (as is the remainder of the set, for that matter). Food for thought; in '82 when my MEP-003A was new, the Government's acquiring price was more than $13,500. In '79, I bought my one and only new vehicle - a soft top Jeep CJ-7 - for the whopping sum of $6380. While nothing the Government purchases is low cost, these units do show where that money went - real quality construction.

 

[andytk5]

Since you guys are talking about alt fuels in the generators I'd like to ask about the 003a and the 004a sets. I know between them is a jump in power, design and engines but can the 004a run on wvo/umo or even biodiesel? From my reading the 004 and 005 are very similar but the 005 uses more fuel while making power I dont need.

 

[ETN550]

Here are some thoughts on alternate fuels and diesels, speaking from the engine's viewpoint.

Although an air cooled engine can run hotter, which is good, it can also run colder in the winter, which is bad. Some head temperature gage and making sure the louvers stay closed until hot would be helpful on the 002 and 003.

The best combustion system would be a prechambered engine with pintle nozzles. The modern hole style direct injected nozzles are very suspect to getting clogged and developing poor spray patterns when substandard fuels are used.

The slower the speed, and the bigger the engine for a given output would be better.

Basically any good running diesel will handle WVO or waste oils but over time these fuels can create maintenamce and repair headaches. Excessive carbon buildup on the top land of the piston can cause cylinder scoring. Cutting back the top land would be helpful.

The old VW rabbit and jetta diesels and the old mercedes diesels are prechambered and are among the best out there with proven performance and reliability on WVO. The rabbit is a 1.6L 4 cylinder. The 10KW MEP 803A is 1.9L and 24Hp at 1800. So the Rabbit engine is about the right size. It just needs slowed down and the pump does not have an all range governor so the pump would need replaced or modified to work.

The WVO and waste oil are heavier, larger less refined molecules.
- They may burn hotter and faster so retarding the timing may be needed.
- They do not atomize as well so soot and carbon buildup is an issue.
- The poor atomization in a small high pressure injector can lead to injector tip issues such as dribbling, carbon whiskers, clogging, and poor spray pattern over time.

- Cutting any alternate fuel with diesel will most likely result in performance and maintenance proportional to the amount of WVO or waste oil used.

I do not know if the 002 or 003 are prechambered or direct injected. The 016B and Yanmars are direct injected. The 004 is a White engine and again I have never seen one internally. If the engine has glow plugs in the head. one per cylinder, but not in the intake it is probably prechambered and uses the desireable pintle nozzle configuration

Emissions regulations and fuel efficiency have drove manufacturers away from the engine designs that really tolerate alternate fuels well.

I would recommend using the switchover systems that they use on vehicles. Start on straight diesel, warm it up good switch over to WVO run it with a good load so there is lots of fuel flow and heat then switch it back to diesel before it is cooled off and shut down.

For anyone just wanting to buy a machine and feed it WVO without becoming a slave to making modifications I suggest running a 50% mix of the alternate fuel with diesel and some fuel treatment thrown in. That is a reasonable approach along with starting and stopping on straight diesel.

Just some ideas..

 

[Brandon314159]

I would like to 2nd the idea of starting on diesel, then switch over to your alternative fuel once it is warmed up.

In the Mercedes turbo-diesel world, I always shot for fuel temps of at least 150F when running WVO. I attained this by running a hose-in-house fuel line from the trunk (where the tank was) to the engine compartment where my switch valve was. The tank was also heated by 25ft of 3/4" copper tubing looped around the outlet port. Fuel temps were high, always nicely viscous, and never had issues. I had a totally separate fuel filter setup (racor 9000) and with adequate pre-filtering, never had to change the racor filter in 10K miles of operation.

A HUGE word of warning...WVO eats rubber.

While some injection pumps are lubricated by the engine oil and fuel is simply metered and pumped, other injection pumps rely upon the fuel as lubricant for moving parts. WVO is an 'okay' lubricant however not if it contacts rubber parts.

In my MEP-006A (and many other) generators they use a rotary style fuel pump with the rubber flex coupling immersed in the fuel. This would be short lived in a WVO application (potentially even worse in home-brew unwashed biodiesel).

The old 1.6L VW diesels would eat injection pump rubber parts and start leaking at about 60-80k, depending on the acidity of the vegetable oil used. In some applications, a rubber part failing could cause a big timing change (and thus reduction in power, reliability, and function of a gen-set).

The mercedes Bosch In-Line pumps only touched the fuel in the metering section and lubed the rest of the setup with a pressure engine oil feed. Quite good for alternative fuels!

I thought about running my MEP006 on alternative fuels, however decided that the IP rebuild is just too expensive to offset with WVO. An inline pump would be better suited to the task (or an engine like a detroit/etc.) Again, starting on something thin and then switch over to the thick fuel once it's warmed up.

I wouldn't run it on any engine if you couldn't get the oil temps hot enough for a clean burn. It will carbon up and just make a mess of the combustion chamber/valves/injectors.

Your mileage my vary.

 

[quickfarms]

Very interesting