Broke Down in Billings Montana - Need to find a shop that can replace wheel cylinders

[tobyS]

You have probably got some sealer for that pan so if you just loosen the bolts and don't remove it you may be able to force a bit onto the area leaking bad and re-tighten them. But like Rosco says...oil is cheap and at a minimum, re-tighten all of the bolts. Since I do not have a Deuce, I don't know where the crankcase breather is but I'd see if it was plugged.

I hope these guys checked the brake adjustment in that center wheel, as it sounds like it was dragging to make the drum and wheel hot. I can't imagine a descent mechanic getting bearings so tight they would heat it all up. Good luck.

 

[Commander5993]

There aren't any mountains in Montana that your Deuce can't handle, with the trailer on. The only problems that you might have now, is your attitudes. Just fix that pan gasket, if you want to, and go for it. So what, if you go up hills at 20 MPH. You'll never get into trouble on hills, if you go down them, in the same gear, that you go up them in.

In the short driving that you have done since you left the shop, has the engine been leaking more oil? Are you sure that the pan is leaking? Oil is cheap. You aren't the first that has had an oil leak in a Deuce. You can make it!

Thanks Rosco, maybe you're right. We have a friend of our who is a truck driver, who basically said the same thing about staying in the same gear going up and down hill as you did. And no we don't care if we are going 20mph, just so long as the brakes work good, and its safe to drive. Other questions answered below in the 'update'.


Update:

We went back over to look at the deuce this morning, and took it for a test drive, about 5-6 miles. The front left brake was squealing every time Dad hit the brakes, but it got a little better by the time we got back. They didn't sand the shoe or drum to break the glazing from it being stuck the day before...

When we got back from the test drive, we went around and felt of all the hubs again, all were cold except the passenger side center axle, which was once again warm.
While we had the truck running, we got down and looked under the truck to see the oil pan gasket which they had said was the cause of our oil leak. But the oil pan had nearly no oil on it, it was one of the cleaner parts of the engine... We went ahead and checked the pan bolts but none turned more than 1/8th of a turn. Gasket looked good, saw no leaks. So the mechanic that said the main leak was the oil pan gasket, either didn't take time to check anything and just wanted to write something down or


So anyway, We went back in to the service desk, and they called out a guy named John to talk with us, who I believe is the Shop Foreman over the mechanics. He was also the guy who I had talked to on the phone the day before, when we stopped at the truck stop and found the front wheel smoking, and sent sent out Matt in a service truck to find out what was going on.
Anyway, John told us that after they had to tow it back yesterday, the mechanic who worked on the deuce was supposed to have re-pulled All 6 wheels yesterday and recheck All of the brake adjustments and shoe clearance. Which we told him didn't happen, because we made the guy at the desk take us back into the shop yesterday as we wanted to see the condition of the stuck brake shoes and such, and they had already put the passenger side center duals wheels back on, and were getting ready to put the front driver side wheel back on, and that was the only 2 wheels they had pulled.

We also told John that oil pan wasn't the oil leak, as the first mechanic had said. He was aggravated that the mechanics had done a halfway job again, and said that he would get it right back in the shop, and would pull a mechanic off another job to get this done right today. He also said the first thing he himself would do is get the engine completely steam cleaned down, and find the source of our main oil leak, and see if they can fix it. We told him we would appreciated it if he could, as the service desk guy from the day before said 'they didn't have the time to do it, and it would be a week before they would be able to check it out.'

So, we left, but then drove back over about 45 minuets to an hour later, to talk with the service manager. But just after we pulled in, John called me and told me he found the oil leak, so I told him we were there, he came out and took us back through the shop and showed me. Sure enough he had found the leak, it was the gasket on air compressor, which we had just replaced the air compressor with a brand new one a few months ago.
The engine was completely clean this time, except for the oil in the tiny groove between the air-compressor base and the engine block, and it was dripping down the engine by the injector pump and on the ground. So John said they would pull the compressor, clean everything, make a new gasket, permatex it, reinstall, and make sure it didn't leak anymore.

While John had been searching for the oil leak, he also had a mechanic named Jim working on re-checking and re-adjusting all the brake shoes. Which at that time the only one he was finishing was the drivers front wheel. Which John told me they had also hand sanded the shoes and drum while they had it apart to break the glazing caused by it overheating yesterday, so it shouldn't be squealing anymore.

They still had the other 5 wheels to check and re-adjust at that time, but it should be done in a few more hours, by time they do that and pull the air compressor to fix the oil leak.

I have to say, John has been very helpful, and actually cared if the repairs were done right.

After we left from talking with John, we went and talked with the service manager about having to get a hotel last night since they had to tow the truck back yesterday. He said he would reimburse us for the hotel cost for last night, as it was their fault the truck had to be towed back and that we lost another day that we couldn't travel.

Since it will be late afternoon to evening before the truck will be finished, we have decided to just go ahead and stay another night and leave out in the morning.
I Hope and Pray that we won't have any more problems, but it looks like everything will be repaired before we continue our trip.

I'll post another update as to the compete outcome when I'm able.
~Peace

-----------------------
EDIT: Don't know if I said this before, but the bearings were fine, and looked to be in new condition. It was just the brake shoes forced so hard out against the drum, the front drivers wheel wouldn't turn by hand yesterday when they had to tow it back.

 

[Commander5993]

Here are the tricks for a tall person to drive a Deuce:

First, adjust the pedals. Two 9/16" wrenches and you can shorten the height of the brake and clutch pedals from underneath. You will need a piece of coat hangar wire to hold the pedals down whilst you adjust them.

Second, remove the seat back. Completely. Throw a towel over the steel frame for your backrest. (You always travel with a towel, don't you?)

Third, adjust the height of the seat bottom to taste.

You will fit behind the steering wheel and you will be able to operate the pedals.

Good Advice plym49, but we don't have the stock seats in it. It has seats out of a Jeep Cherokee.

....I might as well as post this as I know someone is going to:

I'll try to take some when I get a chance.


Also we have already adjusted the pedals down as far down as they will go. I guess I just got too long of legs

 

[Warthog]

Make sure that when they replace the compressor that they "DO NOT" plug the oil hole with gasket sealer. It will starve the air compressor and lock it up.

I have seen it too many times.

 

[Commander5993]

Make sure that when they replace the compressor that they "DO NOT" plug the oil hole with gasket sealer. It will starve the air compressor and lock it up.

I have seen it too many times.

Good point Warthog, thanks. Have to call and talk to John and point that out specifically.
Thanks

 

[doghead]

I would tell them not use RTV at all. None.

You'll be 100 miles down the road, when the compressor locks up if they do.

 

[rmgill]

Sounds like they're trying to make it right. I'd be right pissed if they did the 6 brake cylinders for that price and over tightened bearings and brake shoe adjustment. It's not hard to get the brake shoe adjustment right. Easy to check too.

 

[Heavysteven]

I would also clean the axle breathers.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R1K-zw3kA7w

How did they bleed the brakes? Power bleeder...did they get the air pack..
Did they use new seals? Did they use new lockrings on the hubs or bend the tabs multiply time?

 

[Commander5993]

Ok, here's the Update:

John finally fixed the problem with the brakes touching the drum on passenger side center duals. The return spring just wasn't pulling the shoes back in, most likely caused by it getting hot on the initial adjustment problem which is when they had to tow the deuce back to their shop. They didn't have a spring that was the same, so they had to shorten the spring to get it to pull the shoes away from the drum. Yes that is only a temporary solution, which we'll have to fix later with new springs, which we're going to need new shoes on at least two wheels now anyway...

We left Billings thursday morning and made it to Livingston late afternoon and stayed the night there at a truck stop in our cargo trailers (we have bunks built in our cargo trailers) We left Livingston yesterday and made it here to Missoula by evening. Had no problems with the mountains, just took it slow a few times. We kept a check on the hubs every-time we stopped, but had no more heat issues.

We also have had no more problems with the air compressor leaking oil since John used an anaerobic sealer that is used on semi truck engines, specifically made for high vibration, heat, and pressure. But I think I'll order a spare air compressor gasket when we get to where ever we move to and get an address.


However, we now have a new problem.... from Billings to Missoula (about 350 miles) the two front tires have worn down significantly. They were the two best tires on the truck with nearly 'new condition' tread depth, and now they have little tread left.
We have driven approx 2000 miles (from Indiana to SE Iowa, to SW Kansas, to Billings MT) with no tire wear problems.

My Dad said he thought he felt it pull slightly to the right a couple times since we left Billings, but he didn't notice the tread being worn down until we got here. The right tire is worse than the left, but both are to the point that we definitely don't want to leave them on the front end. With the amount of tread that we've lost in the last 350 miles, we don't want to take the chance that they will last at least another 125 miles, and I doubt they would be able to last that long if tread wear continues at the same rate. And we Do Not want to risk a blow out.

Now we have to figure out how to align the front end, and get some new tires. Or at the very least rotate the tires to rear, and bring whatever the best rear tires are and put them on the front, to try to get us by for a while.

We're going to be here in Missoula until at least monday or tuesday, so its time to start researching this new problem and see if there is anyone/any shop around here that can align it... WITHOUT causing further problems.... Or if we can do this ourselves somehow.

I'm also going to do some research on replacement tires and see what I am able to find.
~Peace

 

[plym49]

Is it possible one of the shops bent your tie rod when jacking the front of the truck? That would cause significant toe in, with accelerated tire wear.

Have you noticed worse fuel mileage? Would indicate more drag/

You should be able to measure your toe-in accurately enough with a tape measure. Make a short chalk line on the tread of each front tire, halfway up at the front. Measure. Move truck ahead exactly 1/2 tire revolution so the marks are at the back. Measure again. Subtract to find toe in.

There are other ways to do it, too, for example with a stick. You will figure out a way that works best for what you have on hand.

 

[o1951]

Sounds like a severe toe in or out issue. With that wear rate, you should be able to see it just by kneeling in front of the truck! When checking, front tires should have felt unusually hot. Check steering linkage and suspension. Look for something loose, misassembled or bent. Since Dad felt occasional pulling to the right, focus on that side, looking for something loose - could even be an extremely loose wheel bearing. Tires are expensive. Try to fix it, not ruin another set. When scrubbing tread like that, there is going to be a lot of heat in the front tires. Excessive heating can cause tires to fail. Sorry to say, seems like that shop created another issue.

 

[glcaines]

Usually, if you have a severe toe in or tow out as extreme as you apparently have, you can look at the surface of the tire and see the direction of tire scrub. However, doesn't really matter if it has too much toe-in or toe-out because it needs to be fixed. As the last poster stated, look for something loose before you do anything, or something bent. When checking alignment, I find that using a 3/4 " or 1" piece of PVC pipe work great and it's cheap. Make sure your steering wheel is centered when the alignment is corrected. Correcting the alignment is relatively easy to do. Also, it is good to run the truck back and forth several times each time the alignment is measured to make certain that the tires are not under any left or right stress. Good luck.

 

[Commander5993]

Is it possible one of the shops bent your tie rod when jacking the front of the truck? That would cause significant toe in, with accelerated tire wear.

Have you noticed worse fuel mileage? Would indicate more drag/

You should be able to measure your toe-in accurately enough with a tape measure. Make a short chalk line on the tread of each front tire, halfway up at the front. Measure. Move truck ahead exactly 1/2 tire revolution so the marks are at the back. Measure again. Subtract to find toe in.

There are other ways to do it, too, for example with a stick. You will figure out a way that works best for what you have on hand.

With that shop, anything seems possible .... They might have bent something... will get under it and check everything.

Didn't notice any worse mileage than expected, when going up long inclines (a few at 6% grade) loaded, plus pulling a trailer.

Hadn't thought of using a tape measure to check toe-in/out, thanks for the tip. I'll also do that and see what I find.

I did some searching, and finally found the Front Wheel Alignment section on page 15-1 in the TM9-2320-209-20-3-2 manual.
It would have been much easier to find it they hadn't mis-spelled (or didn't use the normal spelling of) "alignment"... They have it written as "alinement".

I also searched SS for the "PVC Alignment Trick" that everyone keeps referring to, but can't find a thread that explains it.
I found one thread (http://goo.gl/80VIY) which had links to other front end alignment threads, but the links no longer work, they just take you back to the main SS page.

~Will report back later

 

[Commander5993]

Sounds like a severe toe in or out issue. With that wear rate, you should be able to see it just by kneeling in front of the truck! When checking, front tires should have felt unusually hot. Check steering linkage and suspension. Look for something loose, misassembled or bent. Since Dad felt occasional pulling to the right, focus on that side, looking for something loose - could even be an extremely loose wheel bearing. Tires are expensive. Try to fix it, not ruin another set. When scrubbing tread like that, there is going to be a lot of heat in the front tires. Excessive heating can cause tires to fail. Sorry to say, seems like that shop created another issue.

Didn't notice the tread until we had been parked for at least a couple hours, so the tires were cool by that time. And yes, something that shop did, either un-intentional or not, had to have caused the problem, as the tires were fine until after we left there.

~Will check everything out and report back

 

[Commander5993]

Usually, if you have a severe toe in or tow out as extreme as you apparently have, you can look at the surface of the tire and see the direction of tire scrub. However, doesn't really matter if it has too much toe-in or toe-out because it needs to be fixed. As the last poster stated, look for something loose before you do anything, or something bent. When checking alignment, I find that using a 3/4 " or 1" piece of PVC pipe work great and it's cheap. Make sure your steering wheel is centered when the alignment is corrected. Correcting the alignment is relatively easy to do. Also, it is good to run the truck back and forth several times each time the alignment is measured to make certain that the tires are not under any left or right stress. Good luck.

Thanks GL
btw do you happen to know of a thread which explains how to use a PVC pipe to align?

 

[Commander5993]

I have also done some searching about tires. It looks like the only new tires (currently being produced) is the Goodyear G177's. Once we get the alignment issue figured out, Dad wants to go ahead and get a new set of front tires, and at some point new tires for the whole truck.

Anyone have an idea of what these cost per tire? There is a Goodyear dealer in town here, I am guessing they can order them. Have to find out monday.

~Thanks


EDIT: Does the G177's come in a stock size?? Or are these only being used when 'singleing out' a deuce?

 

[plym49]

My Deuce is super singled with Goodyear 11.00R20 G286 tires. They were installed by the PO. They provide a few more mph and excellent highway performance and are fantastic in the rain. I have not bashed them off road so I cannot say about snow, ice or mud. The PO instructed me to run them no lower than 90 psi with 100 psi preferred on the road, and no lower than 50 psi off road. I get the feeling that these are more of a regular tractor-trailer tire (PO was a commercial driver).

 

[plym49]

My Deuce is super singled with Goodyear 11.00R20 G286 tires. They were installed by the PO. They provide a few more mph and excellent highway performance and are fantastic in the rain. I have not bashed them off road so I cannot say about snow, ice or mud. The PO instructed me to run them no lower than 90 psi with 100 psi preferred on the road, and no lower than 50 psi off road. I get the feeling that these are more of a regular tractor-trailer tire (PO was a commercial driver).

From a quick Google search: http://www.tetraulttirepros.com/Goodyear-G286-Tire-detail.htm?productId=5596180

 

[o1951]

Thanks GL
btw do you happen to know of a thread which explains how to use a PVC pipe to align?

I don't know about the thread, but I will tell you what we did to align race cars. Piece of 1/4 round molding - because it is stiff and light (PVC does same thing, but more flex). Cut it so it just fit between front edges of the front rims 1/2 way up. Mark the spot on rims. Roll vehicle forwards until mark is 1/2 way up on back, or as close as you can get it (Components under vehicle may be in the way). Tire sidewalls can be irregular, so we used rims. Measure- There should be a space between end of stick and rim- say 1/32 to 1/16 of an inch on race car. That is toe in. If it is tighter on back, that is toe out - no good. When measuring, steering wheel must be centered straight ahead, and always roll vehicle forwards, never backwards, as that can change toe. So you need to look at TM and see what setting should be for vehicle, and get it close. Nothing substitutes for a good shop alignment on a late model machine, so eventually, you want a professional alignment with Caster, Camber, Toe set to specs.

 

[Artisan]

Man this blows... Wannabe mechanics destroying peoples lives. Be sure to check EBAY locally and CL for tires. COKER tires I think sells what you need and they would be available (have to wait for shipping) from any tire store IIRC.