Check valve for oil filters?

[Towman2277]

RE: Re: RE: Check valve for oil filters?

The idea of using the "Oil pre-olier" is a great one. The "Oil accumulator" is normally used for drag racing in the event oil pressure drops due to surge of oil from pan at high rpms....and the accumulator sends a surge of oil to "Help" with the "lost" oil needed. I use pre-oilers on many race motors, and you can tell a huge difference between engine bearings from a pre-oiled motor, and one that doesn't have a pre-oiler. If you can incorporate one in, it's for the better!!

 

[WillWagner]

RE: Re: RE: Check valve for oil filters?

Cummins and I think some of the other engine manufacturers ave been using PreLub starters for a long time, Check it out,

http://www.prelub.com/publications/prelub_plus_brochure.pdf#search='prelub%20starters'

http://www.cummins.com/sa/pages/en/...ervices/reconparts.cfm#PrelubPrelub__Starters

 

[builder77]

RE: Re: RE: Check valve for oil filters?

Is this the elusive Oliver tractor engine with the spin-off filter bracket that might work on the deuce?
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58188&item=120058647198

 

[m35a2cowner]

oil filter

Here is a picture of a spin on set-up for a Continental deuce engine. Notice it looks a lot like the pictures of the spin on Oliver in the ebay listing.

 

[JDToumanian]

Here's a different kind of pre-lube pump, it's a self-contained gear drive electric oil pump that is plumbed between the sump and oil gallery, and has a check valve to keep oil from returning to the sump when the pump is not running.

They sell a heavy duty 24 volt version, scroll down...

http://www.pre-luber.com/preluberkits.htm

Jon

 

[Floridianson]

This is going to be long so I will break it down in posts.
Lets start off with the bypass system that is in most motors.
In the event of filter failure the bypass valve that is in the motor of course by passes filter and no loss of pressure is noted.
Problem! If you do not have a way of telling that your bypass is bypassing you won't know and will be running without filtered oil.
I can tell on my boat cause I have temp. gage in remote filter and if it went into bypass it would not go through my oil filter or oil cooler cooler and I would see it as a rise in oil temp.
The good thing we have two filters on the trucks and the chance of both filters failing well I don't know the odds but a least we are filtering a little.
The way the bypass system was described to me is this.
The bypass valve has a psi rating.
On my boat it is 12 psi.
The pressure difference must be 12 or more psi on the back side of the valve to open.
If the oil system runs at lets say 60 psi when running wot then the valve would not open in less there was a filter failure and the oil pressure on the back side of the filter or bypass was 48 psi or less. If some how the filter would let some oil go by and the pressure was lets say 52 psi on the back side then the by pass would not open cause it is not more than 12 psi difference.
In closing I feel that bypass system are needed and work to keep the oil flowing so in an emergency we could keep on driving get back to base and let the motor pool figure out the damage! In real life if you can't tell if you filter or filters are being bypassed then your motor is not going to last. Hope you change your filters often!
PS I myself have never seen a filter fail.

 

[Floridianson]

Oil accumulators just happen to have one on the boat.
Mine is a three qt. and I started out with the electric valve. Was kinda cool hit the switch and oil pressure. The only problem I found was the electric valve will automatically fill the accumulator as soon as the motor starts.
The problem was oil seal failure offshore.The good thing I can check my bilge area without any problem when running and do every 15 to 20 min.
I lost about 4 qts. and was able to make it back to the ramp where I started.
I then decided to switch to the manual valve in case this ever happen again I can stop the oil flow to the accumulator and keep it in the motor or add it if needed.
The accumulator for use in our trucks would be one way of dealing with the no oil at start up. It will work find. It does not have to fill up the oil filters.
I would put it on the back side yes you could go to the turbo tube but the oil pressure sender would work fine.
What will happen is it will back flow to the cam and the crank first.Should have pressure where I need it start her up.
If you let it oil will find it's way out and some would be through the oil filters trying to fill but by then you should have started the beast.
Open the accumulator walk back to cab, pressure is at 40lb maybe when it hits 30lb fire it up. Just my .02 on that

 

[houdel]

Jon - Those pre-lubers are nice but pretty pricey for my taste, although cheaper than a new engine I suppose. Saturn has a universal 24V fuel pump for $36.50 which could probably be adapted to use a a pre-luber. I've noticed that there is an unused boss, identical to the oil dipstick boss, just forward of the dipstick. Shouldn't be too hard to drill and tap that unused boss for oil oil pickup, just need to figure out where to pump the oil. Those pumps probably only put out 5-10 psi, but as long as it will tickle my oil pressure gauge that should be enough pressure to avoid a dry start.

Floridianson - I wouldn't worry too much about the stock Deuce oil filters clogging up and bypassing. I suspect the stock filters keep nuts, bolts and small twigs out of the oil system but not much more. If you are really concerned about CLEAN engine oil, go with one of the AMSOIL bypass filters. I have read an account of someone with a Detroit 6V-53 who used a bypass filter, with 600,000 miles on his oil it still passed an engine oil analysis, was still within spec.

 

[OPCOM]

A couple things come to mind. Since fuel is less viscous than (cold) oil, the fuel pump will be under quite a load pumping lube oil. A robust pump should be selected to prevent burning out the motor or breaking a plastic gear? Maybe OK for intermittent duty, but the flow rate would be much lower with oil.

The laziest place to attach the suction line for as pre-lube on the diesel would be the scavenger sump. I think this is the rearmost one?
(Assuming the oil level is enough in there to do the job?)

If the plug were tapped for a metal fitting, a 90-degree fitting could be used, with a copper line to the prelube system. I'd be afraid to use a rubber line as it could get knocked off somehow, whereas the brass elbow and fittings would be tougher.

The oil in the bottom of the sump might be pretty dirty so maybe it would be a good idea to pass the prelube oil through a separate filter on its way to the oil system.

Where are the best place to inject the prelube oil into the system?

 

[jwaller]

Where are the best place to inject the prelube oil into the system?

thats what I want to know!!! I don't want a place thats just going to fool the oil pressure gauge. I want it to actually get to something.

 

[rdixiemiller]

You know, Dmetalmiki may be on to a good idea. Do his conversion on the filter housings, then install a remote bypass filter like Devilman. If you don't like the look of the short housings, you could build up a "port connector" that would join the inlet and outlet ports together and be retained by the filter housing. That would be a simple excercise in lathe work. Then, mount a bypass filter somewhere else on the engine, return the oil through a fitting welded into the turbocharger drain back line or something.
Properly done, the engine would have oil pressure with 2 seconds of cranking or so.

Most over the road trucks are using bypass filtration, correct?


Must investigate!!!

 

[Recovry4x4]

Devilmans stuff is on the back burner right now with all the other stuff he's got cooking but once you see it, you will approve. I've never complained about the deuce filtration system until Mike brought up the point of all that crap being washed back into the pan when the filter housing drains. When funding permits, I'm planning the same approach Mike has done with the Diablo. If it works out like I think, the filters will be remotely mounted inside the left fender and removable from there.

 

[clinto]

Kenny, can you either apply pressure or bribery to Devilman?

I can supply alcohol, as long as you drag his silly behind to Aberdeen.....

 

[Recovry4x4]

I'm quite certain that he will be going to Aberdeen. FWIW, he had his filter setup on a diesel genset that had been running for many humdred hours. We looked at the oil and you could still see through it. It will be costly to put together but cheaper than engines.

 

[clinto]

Define costly............................................ high/low, estimates are acceptable

 

[Recovry4x4]

The 2 elements were over $40 ea. Bases were bypass and needed modified for full flow and the adapters were made by Mike on the lathe. I'd say 3 to 4 hun to get it up and going, then nearly a C note for a filter change.

 

[tbrenner]

After I get my deuce and see what the the oil filter base looks like I plan on making an adapter (if possible) that will mount in place of the 2 filters. Then have a threaded outlet and inlet hole to run a line to a remote filter. This way nothing will change as for as the path the oil takes (besides going to a remote filter) and it will still run through the oil cooler. I program and run CNC machines at work so if this is posssible to do making these in quantity would be easy.

 

[nickd]

I would be interseted in a conversion to spin on oil filters!! Keep us posted. Sometimes at swap meets you can pick up complete take off filter housings to use for measuremants in the shop. I will keep my eye out for one at Aberdeen.

 

[abh3]

The Preluber is a neat item, put one on a '91 Dodge Cummins when we bought it new and it worked for150+k maybe before it wore out.

It ran before start up for oil pressure and after shutdown as the turbo spooled down so no idle, idle after getting off the highway... As neat as they are, the one I had took some time to get presure on the 5.9 Cummins, it would take all day on a Multi, LOL!

The fact that the Dodge has probably close to 300k on it now with the stock turbo and engine never gone into except for valve adjustment says something for these prelubers...

Has anyone ever considered check valves on the pickup side of the Multi oiling system? One simple 'flapper' type check valve above each pickup screen assy. might just work...

All that being said, an accumulator (a big one!) may be the best thing from the simplicty point of view.

 

[cranetruck]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Check valve for oil filters?

......

Looking at commercial style filters in the size range needed for a Deuce none are of "anti back flow" design so I would still have 0 psi start issues... Something I felt was more prevalent was the filters upside down orientation which allows trash and sediment flow back into the oil pan after shut down and the shoved right back into the oil system upon start up... (something that is always skipped over on this topic) so I decided to fore go the idea of adapting spin on filters to the stock bases and look into remote mounted filters. In doing so I would reduce starting pressurization time and keep the crap in the filters actually IN the filter body......

Good point Mike, however, the crud is forced into the filter under pressure and drained with zero pressure and as a result I would say that most of the crud will stay in the filter and not drain back. Some of the filters I have changed have had a lot of crud stuck to them. I'll go along with that some of the crud drains back into the pan.

In the application shown in the images below all the filters are replaceable from the top, two oil and two fuel, which makes changing very convenient.

I wonder if preheating the oil in the pan would help speed up the oil flow.

Another question, why are we limited to 20 microns for filter elements, does it have to do with the way the element is gasketed in the can or are they just not made?

After all this, I'm sure of one thing, I'll be changing filters more often, probably every 200 hr now as opposed to 300 on the hour meter.