Choosing a Generator

[HamAndEggs]

Hey guys,

I came across this forum after seeing someone post a video about an MEP-803a, and it got me interested. I'm looking to eventually get myself a very reliable Diesel Or Gasoline generator as a backup to my Natural Gas unit. I'm in Houston, TX so we may see hurricanes as well as the grid failure from the freeze we had last year

I have a Generac RG027-QS which is 1800RPM and Liquid cooled with a 2.4l Mitsubishi Engine. This is my main backup, and it of course kicks on automatically in around 10 seconds from grid outage. I have all my important computers and servers on double conversion UPS's which has around 10 mins runtime, so my backup to the Generac should be able to be powered on in 10 mins.

I have a Champion 100520 8750w as my "Backup-Backup" generator, with an NG kit on it. So I can run gasoline or NG and power the house through my 30a interlock kit. I can pretty much run everything apart from my main AC which is no problem since I have a few mini splits in my favorite rooms, which sip power and have zero inrush. I thought it would be way too small, but after installing a ton of power monitoring, I realize that I only use 3kw most of the time, with peaks to about 6kw. Its the main AC and the electric range that take it to 10-12kw

The reason I'm in search of a new backup is that I don't really trust that Champion. I'm sure it would run just fine, but if the NG went out or my Generac failed, I don't exactly have confidence I could run on it for 2 weeks straight. This came up recently when as a storm started to develop in the gulf, I had an issue with my Generac they fixed under warranty and I was "down" for a week. Another reason is that in the future (Who knows when) I'd really love to buy some land in the middle of nowhere, and having a reliable generator I could take up there until I got a real power setup going would be very handy. I do have 17kw of solar, so I'm also looking into batteries, but the cost right now is just too much. I think it would be a $30-40K project to get what I want. Right now on a hot night in summer with a lot of AC and electrical usage, I'm using around 45kwh between sun. And 45kwh of battery is not cheap. I can't imagine spending $30,000 only to not make it a single night on an outage (Sure, I could conserve, but if I'm spending $30,000, I don't think I should have to)

My first thought was to buy a Honda EU7000is. The issue I have with it though is that its yet again a 3600RPM air cooled engine, and for the price tag the 5.5kw rated capacity is just too low. I also doubt its as reliable as an MEP or other Diesel unit. And at 0.8 gallons an hour at rated load, its not very efficient compared to a Diesel.

Next I thought about a Kubota Lowboy II GL7000 which is still in the running for sure. Small enough to easily move around on my truck or trailer, Diesel, reliable and comes with a warranty which the MEP's would not. 0.69 gallons an hour at rated load (7kw). Its liquid cooled which is a plus, but its 3600RPM which is a downer compared to the MEP's.

Then I looked at the MEP 803a, 802a and 1040. The 802a looks good on paper, but its also super heavy and large. So I think it would be easier to step up to the 803a or 1040 and get the extra power. It looks like everything is very expensive right now, but I'm in no rush to make my purchase. the 803a looks nice and simple, but I sure do like the lower fuel consumption of the 1040...

The final idea is to buy an old light tower and spruce it up. This could work out a good idea as there are a bunch locally.

I will have to figure out Diesel storage and rotation, as I currently have zero Diesel vehicles. I do however store around 80 gallons of gasoline and rotate it through my vehicles.

Would love any input, and if anyone has any good gasoline generator suggestions I'll take them! Not sure how many questions are in this post, I just like generators and rambling about them.

 

[Coug]

So first things first, with diesel generators it's very important to size them to the load. Having too large of a generator can be just as big of an issue as having too small of one.

I will also point out that if you already have a fuel supply you rotate through, buying a generator of that type makes more logistical sense as you don't have to store, treat, take care of a second type of fuel (which you admit you have nothing else that would use it anyway, so there is a big investment only to have a backup to the backup)

All the generators you picked are designed to be very quiet (compared to standard open frame generators) so I'm not sure if that is an important factor due to your location, or you just want them quieter. If being super quiet isn't a necessity, then there are other generators to consider as well.



A few points to consider

The Honda EU7000is is an inverter unit. it will be very clean power.
Main downsides I see with it for this use is being a gasoline unit, you have to be vigilant on either running it monthly, or draining the carburetor after every use, in order to keep it ready to run.
Another downside is it does require more frequent maintenance than a diesel would.
There is some advantage to parts availability with how common Honda generators are.
There are also kits to run it off of propane or natural gas if you wanted to go that route. It does shorten the lifespan on them by doing this, but you'll still get thousands of hours of use before needing to replace the engine.
This IS the most portable of the ones you listed by far, as a single person can move it on flat ground no problems.
It also has a 3 year warranty, which is more than any of your other options listed.
Because it's gasoline and not diesel, it doesn't care how much load is on it. You can run it at 100% load or 0% load and it won't have any issues long term because of it, unlike the diesel with wetstacking.


The Kubota is only slightly more power than an MEP-802A. 7k peak, 6500 continuous. Not really very much more than the Honda all things considered.
The difference between this being a 3600rpm unit vs the 802 or 803 at 1800rpms for fuel usage is negligible. The difference in overall longevity is a moot point here, because you plan to use them as backup generators and not prime power, so you won't ever actually wear them out from use.
the Kubota you don't really gain much in size/weight compared to the 802. Looking at the dimensions, it's only a little smaller overall. 600 vs 800 lbs also isn't much as you already can't move it without some type of trailer or equipment, so it's not a big point either.
Warranty is only 1 year, and because it's a backup to the backup, you might never have to run it at all.

For the MEP generators, the 802 (I have one) is almost comparable to the Kubota for power output. The military has it rated at 5kw, but in reality it's a little larger than 6kw of continuous output. If the Kubota were to be rated the same way as a prime power unit, then it would be listed as about 5.5kw (.8pf)
the 803 you'll never be able to fully utilize for your house unless you upgrade the power inlet box/wiring/breaker, as that 30 amp one you have is only good for 7200 watts, and the 803 can do 50 amps.
The 1040 is more complicated, and has more than can fail on it, so it's not as good of a unit to use as a backup compared to any of the others discussed. The added expense and complexity isn't worth the little bit of efficiency you gain, especially for your application.


If you really want a diesel, then one of those old light towers might be the way to go. Already on a trailer for portability, and can be used for other purposes (either light or power or some combination of both). Being local to you is good, as well as others in the area usually means there is a shop that knows how to work on them and can get the parts.



I did some looking and the Honda EU7000is seems to be one of the largest gasoline fully enclosed generators available, so if noise is an issue then that would probably be the way to go for what you need. It's about $1000 cheaper than the Kubota, much smaller and easier to move around, you already have a fuel stockpile for it that you rotate through, it's relatively common and parts are more plentiful than any of the other options available. The difference in price will buy you a lot of fuel.

If noise isn't an issue then there are several other gasoline generators that I would rate with higher reliability than the Honda EU7000is, several being other Honda models but none of them being inverter types, because the more complexity you add, the more that can go wrong.

Example, same cost as the Honda, but open frame, 8400 watts rated continuous, Honda Industrial engine. Basically an industrial/commercial generator design. Multiquip is a brand that you see for a lot of rental generators and industrial sites, not so much consumer. Downside is it's made to order, and non-engine parts aren't as easily available is the main downside.

Multiquip GA97HEA - 8400 Watt Electric Start Portable Generator w/ Honda GX Engine CARB

Buy Multiquip GA97HEA Direct. Free Shipping. Check the Multiquip GA97HEA - 8400 Watt Electric Start Portable Generator w/ Honda GX Engine (CARB) ratings before checking out.

www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com

 

[Light in the Dark]

Light towers are typically brushed genheads, and aren't going to give you the clean power you are expecting... low tech for low tech application (lights).

Your Generac is a 27KW unit, and your backup is under 9KW.... thats a pretty big spread. Have you determined how much power you need for your critical loads? That number is often different than what you want to power. This will be the most important baseline for you to make your decision with, as Coug called out. Diesel sets will last longer, and be more efficient (and burn more cleanly) when running as close to rated load as possible.

Also neither of the units you have now (as you know) are rated for prime use... both are standby at best.

 

[HamAndEggs]

So first things first, with diesel generators it's very important to size them to the load. Having too large of a generator can be just as big of an issue as having too small of one.

I will also point out that if you already have a fuel supply you rotate through, buying a generator of that type makes more logistical sense as you don't have to store, treat, take care of a second type of fuel (which you admit you have nothing else that would use it anyway, so there is a big investment only to have a backup to the backup)

All the generators you picked are designed to be very quiet (compared to standard open frame generators) so I'm not sure if that is an important factor due to your location, or you just want them quieter. If being super quiet isn't a necessity, then there are other generators to consider as well.



A few points to consider

The Honda EU7000is is an inverter unit. it will be very clean power.
Main downsides I see with it for this use is being a gasoline unit, you have to be vigilant on either running it monthly, or draining the carburetor after every use, in order to keep it ready to run.
Another downside is it does require more frequent maintenance than a diesel would.
There is some advantage to parts availability with how common Honda generators are.
There are also kits to run it off of propane or natural gas if you wanted to go that route. It does shorten the lifespan on them by doing this, but you'll still get thousands of hours of use before needing to replace the engine.
This IS the most portable of the ones you listed by far, as a single person can move it on flat ground no problems.
It also has a 3 year warranty, which is more than any of your other options listed.
Because it's gasoline and not diesel, it doesn't care how much load is on it. You can run it at 100% load or 0% load and it won't have any issues long term because of it, unlike the diesel with wetstacking.


The Kubota is only slightly more power than an MEP-802A. 7k peak, 6500 continuous. Not really very much more than the Honda all things considered.
The difference between this being a 3600rpm unit vs the 802 or 803 at 1800rpms for fuel usage is negligible. The difference in overall longevity is a moot point here, because you plan to use them as backup generators and not prime power, so you won't ever actually wear them out from use.
the Kubota you don't really gain much in size/weight compared to the 802. Looking at the dimensions, it's only a little smaller overall. 600 vs 800 lbs also isn't much as you already can't move it without some type of trailer or equipment, so it's not a big point either.
Warranty is only 1 year, and because it's a backup to the backup, you might never have to run it at all.

For the MEP generators, the 802 (I have one) is almost comparable to the Kubota for power output. The military has it rated at 5kw, but in reality it's a little larger than 6kw of continuous output. If the Kubota were to be rated the same way as a prime power unit, then it would be listed as about 5.5kw (.8pf)
the 803 you'll never be able to fully utilize for your house unless you upgrade the power inlet box/wiring/breaker, as that 30 amp one you have is only good for 7200 watts, and the 803 can do 50 amps.
The 1040 is more complicated, and has more than can fail on it, so it's not as good of a unit to use as a backup compared to any of the others discussed. The added expense and complexity isn't worth the little bit of efficiency you gain, especially for your application.


If you really want a diesel, then one of those old light towers might be the way to go. Already on a trailer for portability, and can be used for other purposes (either light or power or some combination of both). Being local to you is good, as well as others in the area usually means there is a shop that knows how to work on them and can get the parts.



I did some looking and the Honda EU7000is seems to be one of the largest gasoline fully enclosed generators available, so if noise is an issue then that would probably be the way to go for what you need. It's about $1000 cheaper than the Kubota, much smaller and easier to move around, you already have a fuel stockpile for it that you rotate through, it's relatively common and parts are more plentiful than any of the other options available. The difference in price will buy you a lot of fuel.

If noise isn't an issue then there are several other gasoline generators that I would rate with higher reliability than the Honda EU7000is, several being other Honda models but none of them being inverter types, because the more complexity you add, the more that can go wrong.

Example, same cost as the Honda, but open frame, 8400 watts rated continuous, Honda Industrial engine. Basically an industrial/commercial generator design. Multiquip is a brand that you see for a lot of rental generators and industrial sites, not so much consumer. Downside is it's made to order, and non-engine parts aren't as easily available is the main downside.

Multiquip GA97HEA - 8400 Watt Electric Start Portable Generator w/ Honda GX Engine CARB

Buy Multiquip GA97HEA Direct. Free Shipping. Check the Multiquip GA97HEA - 8400 Watt Electric Start Portable Generator w/ Honda GX Engine (CARB) ratings before checking out.

www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com

Thanks for the replies

I think I could avoid wet stacking with a 10kw diesel, I would just make sure to get it up there in load for a good while every day. I think the 7kw unit would be just fine for that too.

Agreed on the fuel, I wish I had some use for diesel so I could rotate it. All the diesel generators are just so much nicer. As for the noise, I just want them to be quiet. I'm in the city so its always good, but my neighbor has a 3600RPM Generac which is very loud, so no matter what I do, I'll be quieter than that!

The EU700is is actually fuel injected, so no carb to worry about. I'm not too sure what other fun that brings with it though. I do know they are they picky on the NG kits, and a lot of people suggest just sticking to gasoline. I just don't know if they are worth that high cost

Based on your reply, I might count out the 1040 and possibly the 803a, the 802a does look interesting

That one you linked looks pretty great! Shame its made to order. I could build a pretty nice enclosure around that!

 

[HamAndEggs]

Light towers are typically brushed genheads, and aren't going to give you the clean power you are expecting... low tech for low tech application (lights).

Your Generac is a 27KW unit, and your backup is under 9KW.... thats a pretty big spread. Have you determined how much power you need for your critical loads? That number is often different than what you want to power. This will be the most important baseline for you to make your decision with, as Coug called out. Diesel sets will last longer, and be more efficient (and burn more cleanly) when running as close to rated load as possible.

Also neither of the units you have now (as you know) are rated for prime use... both are standby at best.

I think the power should be plenty clean enough for what I need, after all my Generac is brushed too. All of the computers and electronics in the house are on double conversion UPS, so power input to those doesn't matter at all. The UPS will take anything without a complaint

Yeah, I have pretty extensive power monitoring. The RG027 is really overkill. But I did not want an air cooled genset, and the RG027 at the time was only slightly more expensive than the RG022. So I figured going with the RG027 makes sense, it does 25kw on Natural Gas, and then pretty well future proofs me for anything I'd ever want




I have to admit, I really WANT a Diesel genset, despite it not being ideal. As you can see from the stats, I do peak over 30a on a usual day on 1 leg, as they are not balanced well. I need to move a few breakers around to get it nice and even

 

[HamAndEggs]

Something maybe you guys can help with, is what exactly does the prime rating mean?

Because those Kubotas are rated for prime usage, but in the book it states 20 hours max runtime, and only 10 if you are at full load. And that's not talking about fuel, that's talking about what the engine is rated for - https://generator.kubota.com/products/60hz/gl_7000.html

I called Kubota, and they stated that if you go above that, you void the warranty



Then, you look at the air cooled Generac NG units, in the book it says that you must check the oil after 22 hours of Continuous Operation. Which means you must shut the unit down after 22 hours, technically.

But, my Generac RG027 does not state that, and direct from the horses mouth at Generac if I want to run it for 2 weeks straight, there is no problems with that and they will honor warranty.

So, what exactly does that prime rating get you? Because as far as I'm concerned, my 1800RPM Generac is more "Prime" than the Kubota which carries the rating (But on the flip side, I'd trust the Kubota 10x more!)

 

[HamAndEggs]

Here is my comparison spreadsheet, I'll have to update it with that Honda you linked above



I think the GL11000 can be removed, as well as the 1040

 

[FarmingSmallKubota]

so I have a Multiquip 10kw power 300amp generator that uses a 3600rpm Kubota Engine. 4300 hrs and its quiet. Also i currently have a former rental Light plant with 5100 hrs with a Kubota and once again its quiet. So do not compare a screaming 3600 rpm gas engine to a diesel. Two very different things. Also food for thought if you can get your hands on a MEP 1030 they are the replacement for the 802 and use a Kubota D902 engine. I believe Light in the Dark has one for Sale.

 

[HamAndEggs]

I would LOVE the 1030, but everything I saw showed they were not really available at all. That gives me hope! I'll add it to my list

Honestly the 1030 looks perfect. I know the electronics make it harder to fix, but boy, I can't say no to a good LCD screen...

Does the former light plant generator have much in the way of sound deadening? I'm wondering how much you could add and make it even better

 

[kayak1]

I was looking kholer 14resa generator as that would be a good backup source for my solar.

I started to look at the MEP 802's and 803's and decided that would be a better way to go. A 802 will use 1/3 the diesel compared to the kholer in terms of propane at a 5K load. With propane due to location I can't connect to the existing tanks thus if I was starting over I had the choice of fuel.

Kurt has a controller to enable 2 wire start on the MEP's.

I now have an 802 on a trailer that I will be wiring into my house to act as a backup to my solr. We normally loose power at least 18 times a year and being on a small bridge-connected island we are the last to be fixed. A couple of years ago we were out for 9 days on one Oct storm.

Long term I am going to pad mount the 802 next to a shed. In the shed, I plan on installing a 275-gallon oil tank. My propane company will fill it will offroad diesel. The MEP has the AUX pump to keep the belly tank filled. from the oil tank.

Other can tell you how the MEP's do long-term as I haven't put an hour on mine yet (I just changed the fluids and put batteries in it this week).

 

[HamAndEggs]

Those 3600 RPM NG units are just so darn loud, its not even the db's that does it, its the horrible pitch of the engine that just sounds harsh. I don't blame you for going with the 802, I bet that's a sweet setup

Would be awesome to add it to a battery system, and have the gen kick on automatically when the batteries get low

I hope you post pictures of your setup when you get it done, sounds awesome

 

[kayak1]

I would LOVE the 1030, but everything I saw showed they were not really available at all. That gives me hope! I'll add it to my list

Honestly the 1030 looks perfect. I know the electronics make it harder to fix, but boy, I can't say no to a good LCD screen...

Does the former light plant generator have much in the way of sound deadening? I'm wondering how much you could add and make it even better

If you want a screen you can add this to an 802 and it's almost like a screen:

MA - MEP-802A, MEP-803A WiFi 2-Wire Remote Start Parameter Monitoring System

Remote Start Controller Kits For use in MEP-802A, MEP803A, MEP-804A, MEP-804B, MEP805A & MEP-806A Generators WiFi Remote Control & 2-Wire Start/Stop Features include: · Remote genset Start/Stop via WIFI via cell phone, laptop, tablet · Direct WiFi communication. No router needed...

www.steelsoldiers.com

 

[FarmingSmallKubota]

I would LOVE the 1030, but everything I saw showed they were not really available at all. That gives me hope! I'll add it to my list

Honestly the 1030 looks perfect. I know the electronics make it harder to fix, but boy, I can't say no to a good LCD screen...

Does the former light plant generator have much in the way of sound deadening? I'm wondering how much you could add and make it even better

The light plant really does not have much insulation. Its a fiberglass shell that opens up. The insulation on the Welder on the other hand is more substantial. Also an advantage to the Light plant is Mine has a 42 gallon tank, Welder has a 28 gallon tank. so separate fuel storage would not normally be necessary except that i have many other Diesel engines here to fill.

 

[Light in the Dark]

Based on how Kubota words that equipment, it is NOT prime power rated. They got some marketing dink to put it in there, and see if they get called out on it. Thats disingenuous at best.

 

[HamAndEggs]

Agreed. 20 hours at just a 1/4 load doesn't really line up with "Primary Power"

Then, what does the lower KW number even mean?... Very weird

Almost like they mean "Rated" 6.5kw and 7kw surge, and decided to say Prime 6.5kw and Standby 7kw

 

[Coug]

Something maybe you guys can help with, is what exactly does the prime rating mean?

Because those Kubotas are rated for prime usage, but in the book it states 20 hours max runtime, and only 10 if you are at full load. And that's not talking about fuel, that's talking about what the engine is rated for - https://generator.kubota.com/products/60hz/gl_7000.html

I called Kubota, and they stated that if you go above that, you void the warranty

View attachment 870068

Then, you look at the air cooled Generac NG units, in the book it says that you must check the oil after 22 hours of Continuous Operation. Which means you must shut the unit down after 22 hours, technically.

But, my Generac RG027 does not state that, and direct from the horses mouth at Generac if I want to run it for 2 weeks straight, there is no problems with that and they will honor warranty.

So, what exactly does that prime rating get you? Because as far as I'm concerned, my 1800RPM Generac is more "Prime" than the Kubota which carries the rating (But on the flip side, I'd trust the Kubota 10x more!)

Directly above the portion of the chart you posted above is fuel tank capacity, and above that is the chart for how much fuel it burns at those load levels.
So that really is just how long it will run on a full tank of fuel.

Running the unit out of fuel can be a major issue with some engines, and can even cause damage to injectors and injection pumps sometimes, so that might be why they said going longer than above will void the warranty if they can trace the failure back to lack of lubrication from running it out of fuel, or even just being unable to start it due to air in the system (which can be a pain to get out)


There might have been some communications errors between you and whoever you talked to at Kubota.


Usually a "Prime" rating is how much output you can safely run on it nonstop, where the "standby" rating is the max you can put onto the set for shorter durations without causing issues. Diesel engines have a lot of heat production, and if you run too high of a load you can eventually cause the engine to overheat. Different from "surge" ratings you see on many consumer units which has to do more with how much power can be produced in the short amount of time (usually a couple second) before the engine will bog down to the point where it dies or can't recover itself.

Going above the 6.5kw for extended periods of time, long enough to cause overheating of the unit, WILL void warranty.


As for the Generac, the low oil shutdown on them is usually pretty good. I've gone to one customer's house that their air cooled unit was having oil consumption issues, and every week or so it was shutting down for low oil pressure. Did this at least a dozen times, and still running just fine.

If your Generac had a "prime" rating, it would likely be around 22kw on NG, rather than the 25kw that it's rated for as a standby unit. The standby rating is pretty optimistic. It will do it, but it's more of a "surge" rating like the smaller units.

 

[jwinner]

I have a gl11000 but would not want to pay new prices for one. It was quite a bit cheaper at auction than the MEPs lately, but is more of a standby rated I guess - not just 3600rpm but also a brushed genhead albeit fairly clean power.

 

[Light in the Dark]

Agreed. 20 hours at just a 1/4 load doesn't really line up with "Primary Power"

Then, what does the lower KW number even mean?... Very weird

Almost like they mean "Rated" 6.5kw and 7kw surge, and decided to say Prime 6.5kw and Standby 7kw

I think thats exactly whats going on here. Still not right to use an industry-accepted term to mean one thing, but not be its actual definition.

 

[Light in the Dark]

I have a gl11000 but would not want to pay new prices for one. It was quite a bit cheaper at auction than the MEPs lately, but is more of a standby rated I guess - not just 3600rpm but also a brushed genhead albeit fairly clean power.

I just looked up what this Kubota model goes for now... almost 8k (closer to 10k list price). These (historically) 'very expensive' MEPs look like bargains right now.

 

[HamAndEggs]

You must be right on the Kubota fuel level thing. Too much of a coincidence those numbers line up like that. Just poor communication from Kubota made it even more confusing

One thing I do wish I had was a load bank. Would be interesting to get my Generac up near 25kw and see how it holds up. Could also be used to get all the carbon out of a diesel generator