Connecting autostart controllers 802A / 803A and 831A

[craigc]

The military has been using MPU technology since the 80's. The bugs are worked out of it. The only problems encountered, are normally dirt and metal filings. All other problems are user caused. Screw in the mag pick up to far, need a new one. Screw it out too far, won't work. Since the first time I saw a the MPU system installed, say 1985? I can count the number of mag pickups that have gone bad, on one hand. It simply doesn't get any easier then MPU for speed control, starter cut out and any other function of MPU technology. The holes between the teeth on a flywheel would have to be incredibly large, for the MPU to not function. Even in the flywheel is stopped, it wouldn't make a difference. The signal isn't being read by any component until the engine starts, or runs. Its a good system. I wonder why its not being used already on 831's?

I've moved forward with the MPU route, I believe in the KISS method and I know they work well and will be very easy to install. I did consider a optical RPM sensor but I could not find one that had extended operating temps, just 0-to something Celsius with a operating voltage of 10-30 VDC. Putting a device that isn't guaranteed to work from say -30 to 120 deg Celsius is asking for trouble. I'm a permanent resident in the US and was born and raised in Canada. At my age and experience working in the oilfield from the Arctic to the 60th parallel I've had the "pleasure" of working with equipment that wasn't designed to operate below 0 C.

Here's some good info on MPU selection and installation that I used to find the correct MPU.

http://www.dieselduck.info/machine/07 controls/magnetic_sensors.htm

 

[Dwnorton1]

The mag pickups I'm used to dealing with is a Bently Nevada vibration system. The key phaser is the count module for its system. If you have some vibration issues I might be able to help out with setting a system to shut your gen set down. The gens I occasionally play with are LM 2500. 4.5MWs. Guy thank you for your knowledge base. It's going to make me go see what we use for speed reference from our turbines. Probably a MPU. Lol

 

[craigc]

Yikes ! I just googled the LM 2500, they are super high tech. I bet a very small vibration in that turbine power plant would be a huge concern at however many 100,000's of RPM's that things spin at.
My little MEP-831A that I just bought little single cylinder Yanmar diesel is along ways from what you work on.

Guyfang is the whole reason I started this thread, I had contacted him for help and he said "Why don't you start a thread? That way we all learn". He is an exceptional person and VERY knowledgeable.
He has his diagnostic skills down pat. Thanks Guyfang.

Also thanks to everyone else that shares their knowledge and excellent ideas. I'm convinced with the help from folks on this site I'll have the autostart working on the MEP-831A and the 802A/803A's

The mag pickups I'm used to dealing with is a Bently Nevada vibration system. The key phaser is the count module for its system. If you have some vibration issues I might be able to help out with setting a system to shut your gen set down. The gens I occasionally play with are LM 2500. 4.5MWs. Guy thank you for your knowledge base. It's going to make me go see what we use for speed reference from our turbines. Probably a MPU. Lol

 

[Guyfang]

I thank all of you for giving me the chance to be a part of SS. Its simply fun to do what we are doing!

When I work on the 150 KW Turbine driven gen set for Patriot, we used a MPU system. And the funny thing about it is that I can not remember anything about it, as we never had a problem. I worked on them from 1985 until 1992, and never once had a problem. It did not include a vibration function. And we could have used one! The mating of the turbine, and the main gen was such a primitive operation, I used to shake my head in wonder. It didnt take long to master it, but it often took a looooooooooooong time to get it right. We had one young man who just had the touch. When he was done, you could set a nickle on its edge, on top of the set and it would stay there.

 

[Dwnorton1]

We have this Bentley system on all kinds of pumps and motors, protects big equipment from completely destroying itself in case of bearing problems etc, allows you to track historical data so you know when it is time to do maintenance. can be a real PIA.


In all reality the turbines not all that different that our little 831s. 3600 rpm output. Just lots more heat and much more efficiency. I just love the sound of them when they spin up to speed, you can just feel the power. Hydraulic motors spin them up to like 1/4 speed, for few minutes to purge, fuel valves open, ignition system fires, you can hear and feel when flames ignite. Starter disengages and it spins on up to speed. Whole start cycle is about 8-10 minutes. The LM2500 are top of scale on the facilities I have been on. 125mw is total output of facility if they had all turbines running. 2 units will power comfortably under most conditions, but they run 3 in case of issue with one that shuts down doesn't cause a load shed event that shuts in the facility. Let's just say you or I wouldn't want to pay fuel bill something in range of 30gpm when on diesel.
Yes lots of knowledgeable helpful people on this site. I have little doubt you will succeed in getting these auto starts functioning. I sometimes get the feeling that Guy has forgotten more that most of us will ever know about these gennys. Lol.

 

[Guyfang]

There's nothing in the world finer then lighting a turbine off. It just like you said, you can hear, just whats going on. Fuel pumps come on. Igniter starts to pop off. Fuel valve opens. Then the woosh of the ignition. The whine of the gears starting to rapidly tur. The stater cuts out and then N-1, pause, N-2 and away we go! After I sent my people home, I used to start and stop gen sets, to "Test" them. I simply loved that sound and feeling. Could have something to to with me wearing two hearing aids.

OK, need to stop this. I will start crying! I don't know as much as you think I do. I am a simple generator guy. One of my biggest regrets is that I never went to collage and got an engineering degree. Oh well, next time around!

 

[Dwnorton1]

A degree is just a piece of paper that says you have passed a certain curriculum. Boy howdy the English comp and analytical geometry among other non applicable classes I took have not served much of a purpose in my career.
You sir have what is really is important, hands on skill and the ability to remember that one time when troubleshooting some obscure problem that some forget and have to relearn when they run across again. I can tell you have that ability by just reading your posts, you are always referring back to a particular instance in 1974 or whatever. That is a true sign of an analytical mind. You may not have that piece of paper but I would say you more than qualified to be a power generation systems Engineer. Experience trumps theory every time. Nuff said

 

[craigc]

I worked on connecting the controller this weekend, I could use some opinions on what would be the best way to connect the fuel/run to the 831A S1. I have the crank circuit, the pre-heat (30 sec) and a LED indicator to show pre-heating all working. Also the 2 120VAC legs, L1-L2 voltage and freq display correctly on the controller. Using the freq to determine starter cut off seems to work as well. I have been reading and checking a ton but I'm sure someone has a better Idea.

I'm hoping to get this wired up so if a controller fails a person could just unplug it and the factory controls will still work correctly.

 

[Guyfang]

Just what do you mean by Fuel/Run?

 

[craigc]

The controller switched 24v output is labeled as Fuel which is basically similar to turning S1 to the run position on the genset. There is a separate output to crank as well. Hope I explained that correctly.

Just what do you mean by Fuel/Run?

 

[Guyfang]

Pins 2,4,6,and 8 are the common potential on S-1 switch.

Pin 3 on the S-1 is the run function.
Pins 3 & 7 on the S-1 are the crank function. Pin 7 being the field flash.

That what you want?

 

[craigc]

Thanks, Is that info for the 802A/803A? I'm still working on the 831A. I have 2 controllers so I was going to get the 831A going first. Sorry if I forgot to mention that.

Pins 2,4,6,and 8 are the common potential on S-1 switch.

Pin 3 on the S-1 is the run function.
Pins 3 & 7 on the S-1 are the crank function. Pin 7 being the field flash.

That what you want?

 

[Guyfang]

Yep, 802 and 803. Will dig out the 831 info.

 

[Guyfang]

Well, that was what I get for shooting off my mouth. I can NOT read the wire schematics! They are so fuzzy, I can not make heads or tails. And did not see a S-1 schedule. I will try and find an older version of the schematic. Might be able to read it. Darn.

 

[craigc]

Thanks, I'm just trying to figure out the best way of connecting the available controller outputs for run and crank to simulate someone moving S1 to run and then start. I have it to where the pre-heat works, then the controller shuts off the pre-heat then switches on the 24v of the run (called fuel on controller) which turns on the fuel gauge etc. Then the controller starts to crank the engine, the controller is programmed to stop crank when the AC freq hits 40HZ. That all seems to work because there is 240VAC showing on the controller display between L1-L2. I'm missing a piece of the puzzle be cause it will not shut down, I have to switch S1 to run then off to shut the engine down.

 

[craigc]

Here's some screen shots of the controller showing just some of data that's available if the inputs are connected. All this info is available remotely too. I dont have the current transformers yet.

 

[craigc]

 

[Dwnorton1]

You could use the k12 relay if you have a dry contact on your controller

 

[craigc]

Thanks. There is a couple of dry contacts on the controller and I think they are programmable, there is a one page installation diagram in the first post if your interested showing the I/O.

 

[Dwnorton1]

The reason I came up with that is I had intermittent problem with this relay group. Basically using your controller as an interposing relay.