Cooling upgrade system.

[big block 88]

How is that? By trying to hold someone accountable for his claims? Not sure why that bores you, but the guy made claims and won't support them. Funny you will cry about me, but won't say a word to someone who is selling a product that he can't support a single claim and at best hopes that someone brave enough to take a chance on this product to do the work for him. That is crap. Then he takes it further to say that he is selling it to the Army? I guess I am to assume that you don't want to know the truth? Just blindly sit back and watch people throw their money away? This isn't a question about being skeptical, it is simply holding someone accountable for making claims and not following through with it. If you have a problem, maybe you should ask Joe why he made those claims and hasn't produced a single bit of data to support them?

So you cant understand how introducing coolant to the rear of the heads as well as the front is an improvement? Better thermal efficiency is a given. More even temps from front to rear of the block and heads.... basic common knowledge of internal combustion engines says those are big benefits...

 

[StackJ]

Sometimes you can't convince someone. Here's an idea: We take up a collection and send Sintorion a cooling kit.

 

[Sintorion]

Sintorion, it's time to move your skepticism to greener pastures. There's a whole would of Republicans and Democrats who need your attention far more than we do here on the SS Forums. The whole world of HMMWVs is one of speculation on buying something with an unknown history in most cases and then trying to figure out all the idiosyncrasies of the darn things. And your worried because someone wants to sell a product that there's already reasonable supportive data in existence on on numerous other diesel websites without specific data on his product? Do you really give a crap about what I spend my dollars on?

Again, please show the data. As Retiredwarhorses stated in post #15

You will need to supply real time data from stock setup versus your kit, as well as your competitors rear head cooling kits.

which was responded to by Joe

The difference between what I am doing and the others is they drill and tap the coolant plates, I TIG custom machined fittings onto new plates so there is no chance of leaks and so sealers etc are not needed. Further the other systems tie into the heater circuit which I found is limited to working fully only when the heater is on which in the summer when you really need the added cooling is silly. Further I don't use cheap pre made Chineese S/S brake lines which are not designed for coolant and are too small and rub into soft aluminum like the intake manifold. I use USA made soft outer AN hose which is both high temp and high pressure and is compatible with coolant and won't rub into whatever it touches. Lastly my setup does not require cutting and splicing into your heater hose and use hose clamps to hold it all together. I use a complete bolt on setup with proper AN aluminum fittings.

I will provide temperature readings across the heads before and after.

He further made this statement

I still have a hard time understanding why the other guys would run their system that way as it just is plain wrong.

Sounds to me like all this existing supportive data may be wrong because he claims to have done something different, but again, no real data to support this.

I don't know what part of this is too difficult for you to comprehend, but he is claiming that his product is different and better. I along with several others that don't want to deal with people like you want to see the data. If you are going to make such a claim you should be able to back it up. Seems pretty simple to me, as the saying goes "put up or shut up".

and no, I really don't care what you spend your money on, but I do care about what I spend mine on and I don't throw it away on a hope and a prayer based on someone making claims they can't support. As I have stated all along, if it works, I am all for it, but it is all on Joe to provide the data. It does sound like almost a year after making these claims that he is finally testing his product. That is at least some sort of progress.

 

[NormB]

Acupuncture.

There’s this model we use in modern medicine where a treatment modality is scrutinized by randomized, placebo-controlled trials which are then peer-reviewed, analyzed with statistics methodologies to sort out any confounding variables, trials repeated in larger groups, then safety/efficacy is determined and larger population studies are done. In some cases this means releasing products to the general public with “only” a few thousand test subjects. If a favorable safety/efficacy profile is established, maybe tens of thousands of people start using the product and THEN adverse reactions start popping up.

Baycol, a GREAT lipid-profile modifying agent (statin) was taken off the market by Bayer around 2001 because people were dying while taking it AND another, triglyceride-controlling agent. Nobody thought to test the two together. Bayer saw the hordes of lawyers slavering off in the distance and withdrew the medicine - as safe as it was.

What about acupuncture? 5500 studies that I’ve read about - worldwide. NIH has reems of data. Data collated, reviewed, studies designed, data gathered, sorted, analysed, meta-analysed, even a few “janitor studies” thrown in (janitors, given a white coat, are told to go stick needles in patients and, the metric of “patient satisfaction” being the only thing which can be assessed, people still “feel better” while nothing’s demonstrably, measurably, cured). My dentist insists it’s like electrical circuits, swears by it, but agrees he’d rather have a nerve block for a root canal than acupuncture. Go figure. High colonics, coffee enemas, ear candling, “Oxygen bars” anyone?

Fake “medicine,” based upon false premises, lack of understanding of underlying anatomy, physiology, chemistry, physics, but boy, do people buy a lot of it.

But you’ll rarely hear someone like me with all the right degrees “go off on” the practitioners of “magical medicine” which has no proven efficacy, just a lot of adherents.

A fool and his money, what’s the harm, youknow?


To me, this particular conversation is like listening to atheists complain about other people’s beliefs and practices in a God THEY don’t personally believe in; I still contend many atheists I’ve met in my life have a much closer relationship with a God they profess NOT to believe in than many of my fellow christians seem to have with the God they profess TO have a relationship with.

But the counterpoints are well taken. Just annoying. Let the man sell his stuff. He’s not hurting anyone. Caveat emptor, this way to the egress, there’s a sucker born every minute, and all that.

JMHO.

 

[911joeblow]

Just to clarify, we are going to the dyno to test other items but while there will re-test our kit, since we never did get a HP/TQ difference and A/F ratios before and after. We did all the other testing during development but this one will have an independent observer (the dyno operator) who will sign the results in the end, whatever they are.

The plan with the cooling kit testing is to bypass our kit (the truck has one already), do temperature readings front and rear, do some full load sustained pulls and count the fan cycles and durations, take HP/TQ readings, measure A/F ratios. Then re-activate the kit and do the same test again. Any difference in atmospheric temperatures and pressures are compensated automatically by the dynamometer. What we expect is balanced temperatures front to back, reduced fan cycles and duration, slightly higher HP/TQ, leaner A/F ratios.

Even though we are going to do this, I fully suspect that there will be those who will forever remain obstinate. Regardless of how many results we obtain from differing sources or how many customers post first hand testimonials to support our findings, not everyone will be convinced. In the end of the day I am not all that surprised and certainly not dissuaded from continuing to develop new solutions for these trucks.

 

[DCIV]

Why go through HP with this? Put a temp sensor on the rear head water jacket, put one on the front....are they different? Install this device, did the temp change?

If changing coolant temps on the rear head gain hp I would almost call BS...hp is fuel/air/compression....shouldn't be about rear head coolant.

 

[Skrilex]

Diesels generally run the best just before melting down. So, this product isn't about that. It's about making the engine not melt down. Does it work? Only people who try it will know for sure. People who haven't tried it should stfu. God this thread is one of the worst pissing matches I've ever seen.

 

[Skrilex]

I could give two craps what color it is, and I saw no "giddiness " in my comment. Just enjoy reading posts about things, and you sir (ma'am?) have become quite the bore. We ALL get that you are skeptical bordering on ridiculous. You have done nothing but make a fool of yourself. Of course this is strictly my opinion.

im pretty sure you're iopinion isn't only yours, but rather 99% of us at this point.

Dude, go away and pester kids who put big mufflers on their econoboxes. Your statement has been made, no free passes have been given, take a chill pill or seven, and DONT call us in the morning.

 

[Skrilex]

Again, please show the data. As Retiredwarhorses stated in post #15 which was responded to by Joe

He further made this statement Sounds to me like all this existing supportive data may be wrong because he claims to have done something different, but again, no real data to support this.

I don't know what part of this is too difficult for you to comprehend, but he is claiming that his product is different and better. I along with several others that don't want to deal with people like you want to see the data. If you are going to make such a claim you should be able to back it up. Seems pretty simple to me, as the saying goes "put up or shut up".

and no, I really don't care what you spend your money on, but I do care about what I spend mine on and I don't throw it away on a hope and a prayer based on someone making claims they can't support. As I have stated all along, if it works, I am all for it, but it is all on Joe to provide the data. It does sound like almost a year after making these claims that he is finally testing his product. That is at least some sort of progress.

you realize that you're single handedly this guys biggest marketing tool right? All that lip flapping serves nothing but to keep the debate alive. Just an FYI.

 

[big block 88]

Hp and tq gain is probably and most likely a bogus claim. Diesels do love to be hot in the cylinders (with in reason) but for longevity and better cooling i dont see how this wouldnt work.

Isnt this guy who pissing and moaning the same one who through a fit about wait times on getting the truck he payed for? Like no one else ever had to wait? Im thinkin this dude is someone who would bitch about winning the lottery because of taxes.

condescending too boot. I guess we all just cant step up to the higher reasoning power of you sir. It just "too hard for us to grasp"....

 

[911joeblow]

We do NOT expect much if any gain in HP/TQ directly from the balanced cooling effect of the kit. That being said one excellent way to kill power in a diesel is in the OVERCOOLING of the engine and as hot as the rear two cylinders are, the fronts are under temp as well. The middle cylinders are running at the correct temps. So there will be power gains on the two forward cylinders and perhaps a slight loss in the rear two. Overall though we have seen a reduction in smoke with the kits and with our portable wideband O2 sensor have seen overall leaner mixtures, which would at least indicate that more complete combustion is occurring. I do however know we will see HP/TQ gains when the fan is not running which is a direct effect of the improved cooling system. Anyway we are on a dyno so we will see HP/TQ reguardless so we will include those numbers.

 

[Action]

​

We do NOT expect much if any gain in HP/TQ directly from the balanced cooling effect of the kit. That being said one excellent way to kill power in a diesel is in the OVERCOOLING of the engine and as hot as the rear two cylinders are, the fronts are under temp as well. The middle cylinders are running at the correct temps. So there will be power gains on the two forward cylinders and perhaps a slight loss in the rear two.

.........

post #74

............... I took some temp readings after getting home and was a little surprised. Temps were actually slightly higher by a couple degrees. I suspect this is because of the increased coolant flow resulting in more balanced temps across the engine. Temp measurements at the front probably would have helped show if this was in play and, in retrospect, something I should have done for better data.
........

post #39

Yes all these engines have the same uneven cooling issues. The GEP engines have improvements to reduce the failures common in the earlier 6.2 and 6.5 GM engines but they still run hot in the back cylinders all the same.

just some highlights....

If the fan comes on less, there is no HP gain, just less loss.

If the kit balances water temps between front and rear, and one tests showed the rear getting hotter with the kit, does that mean without the kit, the front of even higher than the rear?

 

[911joeblow]

It was discussed that using IR external temps is the least conclusive temperature testing as it is influenced more by underhood temps than internal block temps. Direct contact sensing is the only way to really properly see what is happening. The fact that the fan comes on less and with less duration is much more indicative of what is happening than an IR temp ( in lieu of direct contact temps of course).

 

[Action]

It was discussed that using IR external temps is the least conclusive temperature testing as it is influenced more by underhood temps than internal block temps. Direct contact sensing is the only way to really properly see what is happening. The fact that the fan comes on less and with less duration is much more indicative of what is happening than an IR temp ( in lieu of direct contact temps of course).

Which is still confusing, because the temp sensor for the fan is at the front of the engine. If the kit moves heat from the rear to the front, wouldn't the front coolant temp get hotter, thus increasing the amount of fan operation?

 

[dilvoy]

Which is still confusing, because the temp sensor for the fan is at the front of the engine. If the kit moves heat from the rear to the front, wouldn't the front coolant temp get hotter, thus increasing the amount of fan operation?

If I read things correctly, this device is about cooling down the hot rear cylinders it should make no difference in TOTAL on and off time for the fan in a given time period if the period is long enough to make warm up not an issue and loading is identical, ect ect. I'm assuming that no other part of the cooling system is changed other than having this device either installed or not installed. If more heat was to get to the thermostat and fan temp switch sooner, they would do their thing maybe sooner, but in the overall heat making of the engine, things should depend on load and since the water pump, radiator and all that stuff is the same, actual heat shedding should be the same over a given load and time. The time of the fan running and not running can be shorter or longer, and probably a mix of on and off differences, but overall, it should have the same time on and off in an hour of equal type running and loading of the engine. Having the temp close to the same across the entire cylinder head couldn't hurt anything, but I don't think anyone is going to have a super quiet no fan coming on Humvee to drive around. --------- I am not an engineer.--------

 

[Skrilex]

This is very true. Brainstorming here but if the flow rate
radiator were somehow greatly increased by this mod then I can see a reduction in total fan time, despite the heat generated being the same.

 

[dilvoy]

This is very true. Brainstorming here but if the flow rate
radiator were somehow greatly increased by this mod then I can see a reduction in total fan time, despite the heat generated being the same.

Sounds like you want to remove the thermostat from the system and make it run as cold as possible.

 

[911joeblow]

A lot of comments here. Simply put the statements about overall system temp not significantly changing are absolutely correct. There is however an efficiency improvement due to the fact that the front two cylinders are overcooled which reduces power in diesels. The rears are overheated which does NOT hurt power (actually might make some) but is detrimental to the longevity of the engine and adds a lot of ambient heat to the inside of truck. By balancing the temps you see a power increase in the front cylinders and a slight loss in the rear two. The truck after the kit does not have sudden spikes in cooling system temps from the poor flow in the rear of the block suddenly passing some overheated coolant to the front causing fan engagement, that is part of the story. The other part is that with the front cylinders contributing more to the overall power and efficiency the other cylinders have to do less. So again local overheating is reduced and the temp sensor sees more consistent temps and is not subjected to sudden spikes that trigger the fan.

Now to really confuse you all, with the kit installed, the truck warms up FASTER and the heater becomes effective much SOONER. Counter intuitive as it may seem is makes complete sense. You are passing once stagnant overheated coolant from the rear of the block to the front where it mixes with the rest of the coolant raising the operating temperature faster and since the heater is in the front coolant circuit you get heat sooner too. Once the thermostat cracking temperature is reached the system maintains this per-determined system temperature.

Hope that clears up a few of the questions?

 

[911joeblow]

Separate question for my customers now. We had a customer with a 6.5T HMMWV that had some clearance issues with the wastegate actuator bracket on the passenger side being too close to the block plate fitting. We have installed three in our shop without issue so we are assuming his might have been bent during the removal or installation of his engine. If anybody had fitting issues with their Center turbo HUMVEE please let us know so we can figure out if there was a different bracket or other change that we are not aware of. This customer did get it in with some massaging of his bracket. He will be adding his write up of the results of his kit shortly. Thanks!

 

[ryanruck]

Separate question for my customers now. We had a customer with a 6.5T HMMWV that had some clearance issues with the wastegate actuator bracket on the passenger side being too close to the block plate fitting. We have installed three in our shop without issue so we are assuming his might have been bent during the removal or installation of his engine. If anybody had fitting issues with their Center turbo HUMVEE please let us know so we can figure out if there was a different bracket or other change that we are not aware of. This customer did get it in with some massaging of his bracket. He will be adding his write up of the results of his kit shortly. Thanks!

I've got a 6.5T that will be going in in the Spring that my kit will be being transferred to. I'll update to the thread when the swap is done.