Cooling upgrade system.

[911joeblow]

There have been several requests for an option to be made available with the kits to add an aftermarket gauge sender into the kit. Well it is now available. It can be added to any of the kits and placed in either rear block port as it sits in-line between the rear block plates and the hoses. It has a 1/8NPT port on the side to place a standard temp sender. They are $15+shipping if anybody wants them. Thanks!

 

[Skrilex]

An idea that has been asked over and over, but ole Joe either has not tested a product that he builds and sells or has tested and received unfavorable results. Either way, I couldn't live with myself selling something like that.

Not a naysayer, but just someone that doesn't throw money at unproven gadgets.

I wonder if Joe will go on record to offer full refunds to those that bought his product if when it is fully tested that it shows to not perform the way he claims?

Newsflash: people like to buy stuff for their rigs. If you don't like it, cool. Why such aggression? Why put it on him to provide you unreasonable testing when you could do that yourself? If you can prove that its snake oil then by all means go for it and thank you for that effort but otherwise if you can't say something nice.........

 

[suzukovich]

You guys need to read and then Google what he is doing. All his system is doing is distributing the coolent evenly or at least close enough. You will find its been done alot on racing engines. It's not a cure all for all the cooling issues, but it helps. The reality it's more of a performance enhancer used in conjunction with other horsepower improvments.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[Sintorion]

Newsflash: people like to buy stuff for their rigs. If you don't like it, cool. Why such aggression? Why put it on him to provide you unreasonable testing when you could do that yourself? If you can prove that its snake oil then by all means go for it and thank you for that effort but otherwise if you can't say something nice.........

So let me get this straight. He makes claims that his kit is better than other. I question this, and you are perfectly ok that he can't support a single claim with any sort of data, but I am the bad guy for questioning him? I assume you are the same guy running a 'Tornado' and have magnets to get better mileage. I must be missing something, but not shocked because as the saying goes - A fool and his money are quickly parted.

My position is unchanged. Show me proof. My question is still out there to Joe. Are you going to offer a refund to everyone if testing shows that your claims are unfounded?

 

[Bighorn]

So let me get this straight. He makes claims that his kit is better than other. I question this, and you are perfectly ok that he can't support a single claim with any sort of data, but I am the bad guy for questioning him? I assume you are the same guy running a 'Tornado' and have magnets to get better mileage. I must be missing something, but not shocked because as the saying goes - A fool and his money are quickly parted.


My position is unchanged. Show me proof. My question is still out there to Joe. Are you going to offer a refund to everyone if testing shows that your claims are unfounded?

The only claims he makes in the actual literature for the kit are; improved coolant flow to the rear cylinders.

Well, in this case their is precedent for the idea of equal water distribution from the water pump across all the cylinders.
Look no further than the inline 6 motors of the 30's and 40's.
They had a distribution tube inside the block that many old car guys, found out the hard way, actually made a difference between a running engine and one that would overheat.
Those old tubes would eventually rust out and there came a market for improved Brass tubes to replace them.

Anyhow, I haven't done the experiment yet of bypassing my kit to see if it makes a difference.
I would like to, but I am struggling with exactly how I would measure the effect, if any.

Maybe you are right Sintorion.

I certainly don't have any data to offer at the moment.
I will have the day off on Monday.
Maybe I will bypass the kit for you by linking the return hoses from the right to left head and looping the hose at the crossover to itself.
For data, I can measure oil pressure and crossover coolant temperature both with a quality bourbon style aftermarket gauge and an electronic thermometer.

If I had a performance meter, I would use that.
I may try to use a stop watch to see if I can find a difference in acceleration but I realize that could be very small and subject to the error of my ability to record start and stop times as well as my bias.
Obviously I WANT the kit to do something.
I paid for it and bothered to take the time to install it.
If it does nothing, I think I can handle that.
Have bought many things whose value were questionable based of "feelings" and later regretted it but I never ask for a refund.
Of course; If someone was claiming a cure for cancer or liberals, and that was fake, I might respond differently.

One thing is certain; the kit contains hot coolant during operation.
The questions are;
Is that water moving from the rear of the heads to the crossover through the kit?
How much water is moving through the kit?
(I might consider capping the crossover line and measuring, at least at idle, the flow of cold coolant from the back of the heads through the kit, into a bucket over a brief period.)
Does that significantly affect cooling to the rear of the engine?
(Maybe a quantitative approach to exactly how much coolant is being transported would offer a calculable way to figure benefits?)
Does that "improvement" make a measurable difference in performance?
As for longevity improvements; I really don't see a way to measure those, if they exist.

Of course, I can do all this and you still may not accept the result, or I may not accept the result.
Personally I have nothing to gain.
I can just leave the kit in place, drive down the road, and be happy in my suspended disbelief that I have done "something" good for my 6.2 engine.
But.. I like a challenge.
Particularly a mechanical challenge.
It may be a waste of time, but I will see what I can do.

 

[Skrilex]

So let me get this straight. He makes claims that his kit is better than other. I question this, and you are perfectly ok that he can't support a single claim with any sort of data, but I am the bad guy for questioning him? I assume you are the same guy running a 'Tornado' and have magnets to get better mileage. I must be missing something, but not shocked because as the saying goes - A fool and his money are quickly parted.

My position is unchanged. Show me proof. My question is still out there to Joe. Are you going to offer a refund to everyone if testing shows that your claims are unfounded?

It just seems like you're expending a lot of energy on your position. Why not do a little less assuming and a lot less repeating the same negative remarks. That's all. If you want to go after people ripping other people off then I can give you a list of options to focus your attention that would benefit a lot more poeple than the 27 people here on this board.
And I'll have you know that my tornado vortex machine gives me 12° colder ac, but only in the winter. So, it works as advertised on tv, rip Billy Mays.

 

[Sintorion]

It just seems like you're expending a lot of energy on your position. Why not do a little less assuming and a lot less repeating the same negative remarks. That's all. If you want to go after people ripping other people off then I can give you a list of options to focus your attention that would benefit a lot more poeple than the 27 people here on this board.
And I'll have you know that my tornado vortex machine gives me 12° colder ac, but only in the winter. So, it works as advertised on tv, rip Billy Mays.

Good grief. If you want to defend this guy do it with data. I am not attacking anyone. Just asking questions that Joe is afraid to answer. I am not assuming anything which is exactly why I ask questions. I want proof. Either this works or it doesn't.

 

[Skrilex]

Okay. We heard you. Thanks for your concern.

 

[Bighorn]

Good grief. If you want to defend this guy do it with data. I am not attacking anyone. Just asking questions that Joe is afraid to answer. I am not assuming anything which is exactly why I ask questions. I want proof. Either this works or it doesn't.

What will you accept as "proof".
A temperature difference before and after the kit?
A performance difference; 1/4 mile time?

Does anyone have a performance meter they want to lend me?

 

[911joeblow]

I have been avoiding direct response to this member who has a clear negative motivation. However much of this has been covered and as this thread is quite long, many may have missed it, but we did significant testing and tuning during the development of these kits. After this development process, only then did we start selling kits locally at first so we could directly support them. Later we then began offering them in mail order form. What this one guy is expecting is laboratory testing standards. There is always more that can be done to to test but to achieve true laboratory testing results is far too costly for such a low production product as this.

As far as the warranty or performance guarantee goes, we have always had one. Anyone who for any reason wishes to return a kit will receive a full refund of the purchase price. Any defects in workmanship or quality in the kit, that part will be replaced at no cost for one full year.

 

[Sintorion]

I have been avoiding direct response to this member who has a clear negative motivation. However much of this has been covered and as this thread is quite long, many may have missed it, but we did significant testing and tuning during the development of these kits. After this development process, only then did we start selling kits locally at first so we could directly support them. Later we then began offering them in mail order form. What this one guy is expecting is laboratory testing standards. There is always more that can be done to to test but to achieve true laboratory testing results is far too costly for such a low production product as this.

As far as the warranty or performance guarantee goes, we have always had one. Anyone who for any reason wishes to return a kit will receive a full refund of the purchase price. Any defects in workmanship or quality in the kit, that part will be replaced at no cost for one full year.

Please share these results of the 'significant' testing. As has been asked multiple times, you have shared zero and only when others have posted results that don't fall in line with what you are claiming to achieve do you state that their odd results are normal and to be expected. Of most curiosity to me is how you were able to determine that there was stagnant coolant. How is that even possible?

 

[ryanruck]

You guys need to read and then Google what he is doing. All his system is doing is distributing the coolent evenly or at least close enough. You will find its been done alot on racing engines. It's not a cure all for all the cooling issues, but it helps. The reality it's more of a performance enhancer used in conjunction with other horsepower improvments.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

I posted that almost 3 months ago in this thread. It will be ignored now like it was then.

 

[Sintorion]

The difference between what I am doing and the others is they drill and tap the coolant plates, I TIG custom machined fittings onto new plates so there is no chance of leaks and so sealers etc are not needed. Further the other systems tie into the heater circuit which I found is limited to working fully only when the heater is on which in the summer when you really need the added cooling is silly. Further I don't use cheap pre made Chineese S/S brake lines which are not designed for coolant and are too small and rub into soft aluminum like the intake manifold. I use USA made soft outer AN hose which is both high temp and high pressure and is compatible with coolant and won't rub into whatever it touches. Lastly my setup does not require cutting and splicing into your heater hose and use hose clamps to hold it all together. I use a complete bolt on setup with proper AN aluminum fittings.

I will provide temperature readings across the heads before and after. I would not expect EGTs to change as they are a measure of combustion Dynamics and not cooling of the heads and block. High EGTs will add heat to the block and heads but that is one more reason to add my system.

Just to quite those that want to defend Joe, this was post #16 from 6 months ago. Still absolutely zero data. Not bashing, just patiently waiting.

 

[ken]

I remember back in the 90's when GM fought the stagnet coolant/rear cylinder problem. First they updated the water pump to 130GPM from 90GPM. Then went to a dual thermostat set up to remove the restriction there. When that didn't work they opened up the piston clearance for #7 cylinder to stop the cracks. They also modified the head gaskets it make a orifice in the coolant passages around the cylinders to force the coolant to the rear of the block then up through the heads instead if just up around the front cylinders.
You can see the two small openings in the gasket pic as compaired to the same coolant passage holes I am pointing to on the head. The old gaskets had much larger coolant holes at each cylinder. The oblong hole in the third pic is at the rear of the head where coolant will come up from the back of the block. Since liquid will follow the path of least resistance it was coming up around the front cylinders and not cooling the rear. This wasn't a big deal to the early 6.2s because of the lower power output and less BTU's transferred to the coolant. When they increased power output they ran into trouble. They already had a bad rep from the 5.7 conversion myth and needed to fix it. I have no way to know if Joe's kits improve the flow or not. I can see less drag on coolant flow through hoses than cast iron. .

 

[honda]

Traveled the Ajo AZ desert this weekend ( 400+ miles) and collected pre-install data prior to installing coolant kit last night.
Kit went in well - no leaks. Tight install.

Will travel desert again this weekend and collect post install data.

I expect coolant temps to stay out of the 200+ range ( for this time of year- different story during July-August ) and tranny temps to trend to the lower side as well - we'll see.

stock 6.2 with Banks
th400
208
3.73 one tons
aluminum radiator
stock 5 blade fan
HMMV crossover as per pic

I collect relative Speed/RPM's/isspro gauge readings from EGT, Tranny temp, Coolant temp, ambient outside temperature and border patrol attitude.

I will report back. That is all.

Cheers

 

[911joeblow]

View attachment 702287
Traveled the Ajo AZ desert this weekend ( 400+ miles) and collected pre-install data prior to installing coolant kit last night.
Kit went in well - no leaks. Tight install.

Will travel desert again this weekend and collect post install data.

I expect coolant temps to stay out of the 200+ range ( for this time of year- different story during July-August ) and tranny temps to trend to the lower side as well - we'll see.

stock 6.2 with Banks
th400
208
3.73 one tons
aluminum radiator
stock 5 blade fan
HMMV crossover as per pic

I collect relative Speed/RPM's/isspro gauge readings from EGT, Tranny temp, Coolant temp, ambient outside temperature and border patrol attitude.

I will report back. That is all.

Cheers

Sounds like a fun trip, enjoy. I look forward to your feedback.

 

[Action]

View attachment 702287
Traveled the Ajo AZ desert this weekend ( 400+ miles) and collected pre-install data prior to installing coolant kit last night.
Kit went in well - no leaks. Tight install.

Will travel desert again this weekend and collect post install data.

I expect coolant temps to stay out of the 200+ range ( for this time of year- different story during July-August ) and tranny temps to trend to the lower side as well - we'll see.

stock 6.2 with Banks
th400
208
3.73 one tons
aluminum radiator
stock 5 blade fan
HMMV crossover as per pic

I collect relative Speed/RPM's/isspro gauge readings from EGT, Tranny temp, Coolant temp, ambient outside temperature and border patrol attitude.

I will report back. That is all.

Cheers

Will any data from this help others? You may be the only one with this setup...

 

[honda]

Each reader can do their own individual evaluation of the data.
I'm just gonna report. You decide. ( mmmm...maybe I can get a job doing the nightly news}

 

[911joeblow]

Will any data from this help others? You may be the only one with this setup...

The cooling system (minus the radiator) and the flow within the block are still the same. The difference is the added heat from the turbocharging which only makes the situation worse. Overall his results are valid for others with 6.2/6.5 engines. The radiator being aftermarket might effect the cooling capacity of the system compared to your truck but it is really the before and after difference that is being discussed. He set a baseline, then did the kit, and soon we will see the results of that change.

I reported data way back in the beginning of this thread that I saw 40-50 degree difference between the front and back of the block. I also discussed the limitations of what I, you and others can actually measure due to the fact this is not easily done without expensive testing equipment and modifications to the block itself to probe directly into the block cooling jackets. What is measurable more easily is the improved drivability, added power, improved MPG, and reduced fan running times. Diesel engines need to operate in a narrow band of temperature to be most efficient and without these kits the front of the block is overcooled and the rear is overheated. Both extremes effect the performance of the engine as well as the longevity. Nothing new here as has been posted by me and many others. I did not discover the problem but I did work up a solution which can be bolted on with little effort and works to resolve the issue.

End of the day there are those that will never be satisfied that these kits have proven themselves to their satisfaction, and that is fine. In the mean time I will continue to develop these and expand the line to the civilian trucks as well. Feedback has been very good both publicly and privately and with a few kinks here and there the kits have performed very well in some pretty extreme environments.

A question for those with the kits. Please describe any difference in smoke output from before and after the kit if you would. Thanks!

 

[Sintorion]

I reported data way back in the beginning of this thread that I saw 40-50 degree difference between the front and back of the block. I also discussed the limitations of what I, you and others can actually measure due to the fact this is not easily done without expensive testing equipment and modifications to the block itself to probe directly into the block cooling jackets. What is measurable more easily is the improved drivability, added power, improved MPG, and reduced fan running times. Diesel engines need to operate in a narrow band of temperature to be most efficient and without these kits the front of the block is overcooled and the rear is overheated. Both extremes effect the performance of the engine as well as the longevity. Nothing new here as has been posted by me and many others. I did not discover the problem but I did work up a solution which can be bolted on with little effort and works to resolve the issue.

End of the day there are those that will never be satisfied that these kits have proven themselves to their satisfaction, and that is fine. In the mean time I will continue to develop these and expand the line to the civilian trucks as well. Feedback has been very good both publicly and privately and with a few kinks here and there the kits have performed very well in some pretty extreme environments.

A question for those with the kits. Please describe any difference in smoke output from before and after the kit if you would. Thanks!

Wait, are you now claiming that your device offers "improved drivability, added power, improved MPG, and reduced fan running times"? Wow, a real magic bullet. I can't wait to see the data that supports this claim!!