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Do you need a CDL for a 5 ton

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spicergear

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It won't matter if you have 130 or 630hp, you won't get pulled over for that. Or, if you're belching black smoke everytime you bump the throttle and you have a LEO that just may have a question...he'll prolly check. Not drawing more attention is better.

I have an email from a PA State Trooper telling me that I'm okay with a deuce as far as commercially because I'm not involved in COMMERCE or a business. AND this note came up in another commercial question thread, the IFTA stickers that the clueless LEO's may be looking for as a quick buck for their state or county CANNOT even be completely and properly filled out to be applied for if you are a non-business. I, Spicergear, as a non business and just plain hobbyest cannot fill out that paperwork because it IS SPECIFICALLY for BUSINESS/COMMERCE applications. It's absoutely tail chasing because no one expects a bunch of dingbats to want to own massive trucks without making money. We're different and therefore don't fit the best within the black and white guidelines of the written law. Sucks for us here and there but we're still managing! :beer:
 

LanceRobson

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I think it is very important to keep some of these things separate in your mind.

The federal guidelines on CDLs and CMVs only take effect when you cross a state line for commerce with the exception of a limitd number of hazmat items that are always regulated. If you are never leaving your state, forget about them.

Each state is free to define a CMV and the requirement for a CDL for purposes of intrastate use. They have to enforce and comply with federal regulations too but only for commerce. If you are not in interstate commerce the federal regulations do not affect you but the state ones might. In some states the rules are srticter than the federal ones, in other states they are less restrictive.

For instance, in New York the DMV regulation which categorizes who needs a CDL and what class it needs to be reads "A CDL is required to operate a COMMERCIAL motor vehicle that:" and then it list all the vehicle types. So, for NY no commercial use = no CDL.

Again, in NY, the regulation for air brakes begins: "An air brake endorsement is required to operate any CMV that is equipped with air brakes or air over hydraulic brakes." No commercial use = no air brake endorsement.

Other states may use weight (laden or unladen) or the number of axles or just about anything else to define the requirements.

As for tossing camping gear in the bed of a cargo truck and calling it an RV from the way the rules were explained to me that won't work. At the time I was looking into buying either a road tractor or a medium duty straight truck with a sleeper and shortening the frame to us it to haul a large fifth wheel camper. In order to be able to register it as an RV and not as a commercial truck I wanted to equip it as an RV.

An earlier post here listed the stuff an RV has to have. The truck dealer (who had done several truck to RV conversions) showed me one conversion done in a large tractor sleeper. And no, you didn't need a CDL or air brake endorsement.

They had a microwave oven, the bed, one of the portable toilets that you remove the tank from to empty, a 5gallon water jug on a shelf with a spigot in it etc. A camp stove would have worked too.

The key point he brought up was that it needed to be in a space not used for general cargo. Now, with the advent of toy haulers I'd guess this line is getting blurred too since the rules seem to envision a permanently enclosed space. I don't think that a fabric covered truck bed with a few bits of camping gear in it is going to fool anyone into calling it an RV. A commo shelter with turnbuckle tie downs might.

I have learned that when asking commercial vehicle enforcement folks about rules related to MVs and RVs to ask them to specifically state what section of vehicle and traffic law they are citing. Without exception those rules have been predicated on COMMERCE. Note that this has been in New York so don't think I'm writing gospel here. So don't just ask a cop for an answer, ask for an answer with a specific citation of code....

An earlier post stated that if you do not register a deuce or 5 ton truck as historic then NY will register it "Commercial". That is correct even if you are not involved in commerce since NY classifies all vehicles over a certain weight under commercial registrations even if they are never used in commerce. 3/4 and 1 ton trucks get commercial plates even if the don't spend a day in commerce over their entire life span.

Don't confuse that plating requirement with a CMV or CDL requirement. Like most states (or the federal rules) unless NY does a top to bottom re-write of it's vehicle and traffic law all at once to reflect modern vehicles and uses there are going to be flaky situations like this. Back when the rules were drafted soccer moms weren't driving F-350 crew cabs or towing 8 horse trailers and 14,000 pound campers. Thoase of us old enough to remember the '60s and '70 will tell you that seeing a pickup truck in a residential neighborhood was unheard of except for contractors.

So, after 6 pages of comments all we really know is that you need to know the rules in every state in which you are going to operate your MV and that you may need to keep the requirements for a CDL separate from those for a CMV, from a commercial plate, from scaling requirements, from mandatory stops at commercial vehicle enforcement inspections etc.

Lance
 

Neophyte

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Every state has reciprocity rules. As long as you are compliant with your own state, you're good to go. If your state requires a CDL, make sure you have the class B TYPE II CDL noted in your glove box to show the LEO (for INTERSTATE, occasional use....unless you do type I with a medical certificate required).

Road weight restrictions would be the only area of concern (as Wisconsin and other states limit weight on some roads in the spring)......check those before travel.
 

1 Patriot-of-many

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Depends on the state laws, here in MN:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Do I need a DOT health card?
A driver is required to have a current and valid DOT health card (medical examiner's certificate) if operating a vehicle that is:
[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Of any size operating for-hire in intrastate commerce unless providing transportation described in MN Statute § 221.025, clauses 6, 10, 12, and 13;
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Over 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) operating in interstate commerce;
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Over 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight (GVW) or GVWR operating as a private carrier in intrastate commerce;
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, operating in interstate commerce;
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Designed to transport 8 or more passengers, including the driver, operating for-hire in intrastate commerce; or
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any size vehicle transporting hazardous materials of a type or quantity that requires the vehicle to be placarded.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Do I need a commercial vehicle driver's license (CDL)?
A driver is required to obtain a CDL to operate any of the following vehicles:
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight (GVW) of more than 26,000 pounds;
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A combination of vehicles with a combined GVW of more than 26,000 pounds; with a trailer of more than 10,000 pounds GVW
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A vehicle designed to transport 16 or more people including the driver;
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any size vehicle that requires hazardous materials placards; or
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any size vehicle outwardly equipped and identified as a school bus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A driver is not required to obtain a CDL to operate any of the following vehicles:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A farm truck when it is:[/FONT]
    • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Operated by the farmer or immediate family member, or an employee of the farmer:[/FONT]
    • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Used to transport agricultural products, farm machinery, or farm supplies, including hazardous materials to or from a farm;[/FONT]
    • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Not used in a contract or common carrier operation; and[/FONT]
    • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Used within 150 miles of the farm[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An authorized emergency vehicle of any size[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A recreational vehicle operated for personal use[/FONT]


So I'm good up to 26K without a CDL. If it were registered as a farm vehicle no limit as to weight.
 

CT-Mike

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So when I look at the weight label for a M929, it states:

Total LBS 25,888.

Seems to me that would be the GVWR and no CDL required here it CT since it is under 26K.

This is from CT DMV website:

[h=3]When do I need a Commercial Driver's License?[/h]


According to federal rules, you need a CDL to drive any of the following vehicles in any state:
  • Class A CDL: Any combination of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GWVR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

  • Class B CDL: Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

  • Class C CDL: Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.
[HR][/HR]

Am I figuring this right?
 

poolmike

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So when I look at the weight label for a M929, it states:

Total LBS 25,888.

Seems to me that would be the GVWR and no CDL required here it CT since it is under 26K.

This is from CT DMV website:

When do I need a Commercial Driver's License?



According to federal rules, you need a CDL to drive any of the following vehicles in any state:

  • Class A CDL: Any combination of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GWVR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

  • Class B CDL: Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

  • Class C CDL: Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.
[HR][/HR]

Am I figuring this right?


Which might work....just don't add fuel or a driver.
 

castirondude

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I think the _rating_ on a 929 is over 26k though.
Yea if the empty weight is 25888 then you're kind of screwed, most vehicles "empty" is w/o fluids
I would have it weighed. Call the highway patrol and ask if you register at 26k and operate below that, can you drive it?
 

Tow4

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I think you will find that most states look at what the manufacturer says the GVWR of the vehicle or vehicle combination if it's a tractor designed to pull a trailer, to determine the type of license required. That is not the empty weight, but what it's max weight with load, towed or otherwise.
 

rmgill

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The best thing for the Op to do is seek out answers at his state DMV office...Other than that it is:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

NO. Not really. Even they don't know the answer.

I'm REALLY tired of the BEATING THE DEAD HORSE crowd that can't even give a clear answer themselves.


If you're likely to result in a road side conversation with the Police then it's NOT A BLOODY DEAD HORSE.

Don't like the thread? GO TO THE NEXT BLOODY THREAD.


The simple fact that it varies from state to state AND that the Non-commercial licenses exist and that the Feds themselves have informed me that even an 80,000 GVW Tractor Trailer used for personal purposes doens't all into Commercial Motor Vehicle classes means that

ITS NOT A DEAD HORSE.
 

rmgill

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It really depends on what state you're in. The federal standards apply to commercial use only, but state laws aren't all written that way. In CA, the required license class is based on the type of vehicle being driven, even if it's not being used commercially. I can go on in a lot more detail about CA's particular requirements, but this horse has already been beaten to a fine paste. ;)

They're slowly being trued up. The FMCSA and it's agents are generally up on the regs as complex as they are.
All Regulations
Part 390

§ 390.3
General applicability.
(a) The rules in subchapter B of this chapter are applicable to all employers, employees, and commercial motor vehicles, which transport property or passengers in interstate commerce.
(b) The rules in part 383, Commercial Driver's License Standards; Requirements and Penalties, are applicable to every person who operates a commercial motor vehicle, as defined in §383.5 of this subchapter, in interstate or intrastate commerce and to all employers of such persons.

(c) The rules in part 387, Minimum Levels of Financial Responsibility for Motor Carriers, are applicable to motor carriers as provided in § 387.3 or § 387.27 of this subchapter.
(d) Additional requirements. Nothing in subchapter B of this chapter shall be construed to prohibit an employer from requring and enforcing more stringent requirements relating to safety of operation and employee safety and health.
(e) Knowledge of and compliance with the regulations.
(1) Every employer shall be knowledgeable of and comply with all regulations contained in this subchapter which are applicable to that motor carrier's operations.
(2) Every driver and employee shall be instructed regarding, and shall comply with, all applicable regulations contained in this subchapter.
(3) All motor vehicle equipment and accessories required by this subchapter shall be maintained in compliance with all applicable performance and design criteria set forth in this subchapter.
(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to—

(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;
 
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rmgill

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I wouldn't trust a Verbal answer if they said yes. I would get it in Writing.

Yes, but have them cite the law. My stated didn't want to give me a non Commercial Class A. They said I had to be a fireman or a farmer. I finally ran it all the way up to the state AG's office who initially said I had to be a fireman or a farmer. I then asked them what the legal requirements were per such and such code section. The flunkie that was answering my letter went and looked up the code and DING the light came on. They sent me a letter than I took to the DMV offices and they tried the run around again, I handed them the letter. They went and got their boss, then they tried the same thing, I handed them the letter. Rinse repeat two more times and then they came and gave me a license.

The problem with MV's is that they're rare, odd and fall outside of what government pencil pushers know to be the norm. So they default to the only thing they know rather than looking it up or deferring to least invasive. So, you have to know.

This is why the "dead horse crowd" really gets on my nerves. It' varies state to state and the rules change slowly but the default function of just get the CDL and pay the higher fees/taxes and expose yourself to more liability is just plain dumb.

How many people want to send an extra $2000 in tax payments in they don't need to? I don't. :?
 

swbradley1

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Everyone gets bent out of shape when the same threads pop up over and over again, even me. In this case when the thread popped (again) I read some of the linked to information and no matter where I go or what I look at it always comes down to one word, commercial.
 

Wolfen

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I agree. I've know people who have huge RV's some of them converted from Bus's and they don't have a CDL. Those things weigh more then a 5 Ton as well as having Air Brakes.
 
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