Another Ahab
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Hey peashooter, that would be great; did this ever get anywhere?
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Dual Circuit Brake Engineering Thread
- Thread starter frodobaggins
- Start date
peashooter
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Sorry not yet. Just called him again... He is taking care of a family member in poor health and I guess has only been home 1 week in the last few months. He thought a couple weeks until he can get to it.
Anyone else have a 86-89 deuce they are working on/parting out that would be willing to loan the bracket out for a bit?
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as of 06052014 this is for sale in the SS classifieds.
I have complete dual system
late model that I need installed.
I am now too old to work upside down by myself.
Does anyone within a few hundred miles do this work$
I have complete dual system
late model that I need installed.
I am now too old to work upside down by myself.
Does anyone within a few hundred miles do this work$
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SP5
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So much of this process of installing an air operated duel curcuit brake system seems to be an excersize in futility. This whole thing about custom made brackets, an expensive MC, another air tank, another airpak, more air lines, more plumbing, duplicating the later AF trucks, etc., is chasing-your-tail.
In reality, the "stock" duel curcuit system of the late trucks is just adding another layer of 65 year old thinking/parts/technology, on top of the first layer of 65 year old thinking/parts/technology. And now there is the up-keep of two expensive airpaks. It's just putting lipstick on a pig.
The thread that was started by Spicergear, and expanded upon by Jesusgatos, ran over a five year period, from '07>'13,and is the most complete and difinitive answer to having a modern, safe, high performance, duel brake system, at probably less overall cost. http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?16065-Hydro-Max-Brake-Assist-*pics-added*-(long-
Not only does this type of set-up give modern duel-curcuit braking, but also makes allowence for the addition of modern power steering, should one desire.
Back in the '20s, before the introduction of quality hydraulic systems/equipment, the Navy used air pressure to operate the ballast tank valves on submarines,, it took awhile, but when the hydra-tech stuff came along, the air operated systems were thrown by the wayside. Except for a horn, or fill a tire, or maybe pull a military trailer, there is really no reason for air, with its problems of leaks/moisture/lubrication.
In reality, the "stock" duel curcuit system of the late trucks is just adding another layer of 65 year old thinking/parts/technology, on top of the first layer of 65 year old thinking/parts/technology. And now there is the up-keep of two expensive airpaks. It's just putting lipstick on a pig.
The thread that was started by Spicergear, and expanded upon by Jesusgatos, ran over a five year period, from '07>'13,and is the most complete and difinitive answer to having a modern, safe, high performance, duel brake system, at probably less overall cost. http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?16065-Hydro-Max-Brake-Assist-*pics-added*-(long-
Not only does this type of set-up give modern duel-curcuit braking, but also makes allowence for the addition of modern power steering, should one desire.
Back in the '20s, before the introduction of quality hydraulic systems/equipment, the Navy used air pressure to operate the ballast tank valves on submarines,, it took awhile, but when the hydra-tech stuff came along, the air operated systems were thrown by the wayside. Except for a horn, or fill a tire, or maybe pull a military trailer, there is really no reason for air, with its problems of leaks/moisture/lubrication.
rustystud
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The cost of a dual system is far less then the system you mentioned. You need to get an extra AirPac and a few more brake lines, Big Deal ! In the systems you described they completely gutted the brakes system, had to buy expensive brake units (I know I priced them ) and modify the crap out of your truck. Wow Big Difference !!! As far as air systems going by the wayside, our almost one million dollar busses ($985,000.00) are still using this "antiquated" system . They are state of the art in all respects yet they still us this OLD air system for there brakes and suspensions. Maybe the air brake system isn't all that bad !
I have yet to see a semi-rig using anything else either.
peashooter
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I looked pretty hard into the Hydromax system too. I actually could have done that cheaper than redoing my split circuit system since the only thing I would need to buy was the hydromax booster, everything else I had, or had access to a free one.
Reasons why I stuck with the split circuit:
-In my case, I really wanted/needed trailer brakes.
-It would have been a big deal to make the hydromax fit in the truck with the correct pedal ratio and access to things.... basically it would have needed a lot of thought, engineering, and fabrication.
-plus I like the sound of the air release when I let off the brakes
So for me some of what I like is that it keeps some of the vintage there, but in a safe way.
The 87-89, and 93+ truck systems already had that stuff figured out and well documented so really it just comes down to getting the right parts, and installing. New air packs are a lot, but you can get free ones and just rebuild them with an $85 dollar kit. I've got some airpack cores in the pay it forward section of the classifieds right now. Master cylinders for the late model deuces and hydromax are basically the same so the cost isnt going to change there unless you go with a chinese built one which will cut the price in half.
If I wasn't going to use a trailer, had lots of time to engineer and fabricate the mounting brackets and pedal assembly for the hydromax, and didnt care about keeping any of the vintage system then I probably would have gone the Hydromax route.
Reasons why I stuck with the split circuit:
-In my case, I really wanted/needed trailer brakes.
-It would have been a big deal to make the hydromax fit in the truck with the correct pedal ratio and access to things.... basically it would have needed a lot of thought, engineering, and fabrication.
-plus I like the sound of the air release when I let off the brakes
So for me some of what I like is that it keeps some of the vintage there, but in a safe way.The 87-89, and 93+ truck systems already had that stuff figured out and well documented so really it just comes down to getting the right parts, and installing. New air packs are a lot, but you can get free ones and just rebuild them with an $85 dollar kit. I've got some airpack cores in the pay it forward section of the classifieds right now. Master cylinders for the late model deuces and hydromax are basically the same so the cost isnt going to change there unless you go with a chinese built one which will cut the price in half.
If I wasn't going to use a trailer, had lots of time to engineer and fabricate the mounting brackets and pedal assembly for the hydromax, and didnt care about keeping any of the vintage system then I probably would have gone the Hydromax route.
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refer to post #108
If I can not get the dual system installed then it is for sale, either way, any takers?
The Master cylinders on the dual circuit system are different than the "single" brake
setup and I think they rebuild with O-rings.
I also have the different air tanks that go with it
or I think I do, How do I discern the difference?
If I can not get the dual system installed then it is for sale, either way, any takers?
The Master cylinders on the dual circuit system are different than the "single" brake
setup and I think they rebuild with O-rings.
I also have the different air tanks that go with it
or I think I do, How do I discern the difference?
HanksDeuce
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I just ordered a complete Hydroboost setup from a company in California. Yeah it's pricey at $1140 shipped, but it's brand new parts that include everything I need to eliminate the air over hydraulic braking system on my deuce. It is a split hydraulic system powered by my power steering pump. I will post more when my parts arrive in a week or so. That doesn't include the money already spent to convert to the F-550 disc brakes or the SS braided and hard lines I ran to replace the original lines.
If you have stuff for sale it goes in the Classifieds, not in the regular forums. You can create the ad and then link to it.
Blendmaster2002
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Well here's my 
,
for those that want to retain a 6x6 truck and pull M-105 and similar trailers in my opinion the best and or easiest thing to do is replicate the Air Force or A3 brake system. The fail safe/redundancy does work, my dad and I have some of the Air force trucks, he blew a front brake line in one of his ( line rubbed up against the sharp edge of steering knuckle) and still had adequate brakes for stopping. I have an M36A2 with the standard single circuit brake system which works great but I want the safety/redundancy of the later split brake system, I found a mostly complete used dual circuit system with pedals, mc, wiring harness, air tanks and no air packs off a well known auction site for $500.00+ship, so I bought that and picked up a few used long air packs and all new rubber lines and new wheel cylinders for the truck, I will rebuild all used component's when I install the dual circuit system and have a brake system I feel confident in being safer.
Frank8003, to identify the dual circuit tanks one of the tanks is separated into two air reservoirs so it has two drains on the bottom.
, for those that want to retain a 6x6 truck and pull M-105 and similar trailers in my opinion the best and or easiest thing to do is replicate the Air Force or A3 brake system. The fail safe/redundancy does work, my dad and I have some of the Air force trucks, he blew a front brake line in one of his ( line rubbed up against the sharp edge of steering knuckle) and still had adequate brakes for stopping. I have an M36A2 with the standard single circuit brake system which works great but I want the safety/redundancy of the later split brake system, I found a mostly complete used dual circuit system with pedals, mc, wiring harness, air tanks and no air packs off a well known auction site for $500.00+ship, so I bought that and picked up a few used long air packs and all new rubber lines and new wheel cylinders for the truck, I will rebuild all used component's when I install the dual circuit system and have a brake system I feel confident in being safer.
Frank8003, to identify the dual circuit tanks one of the tanks is separated into two air reservoirs so it has two drains on the bottom.
welldigger
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Are you using hydroboost from a one ton or similar truck or a bosch hydromax? I love the hydromax system. Brake boost comes from the power steering pump but if your engine is off or dies on you it has electric redundancy boost. Not quite as good as the hydraulic boost but it will get you stopped.
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I would like to know how that works out for you, if possible with lots of pics and engineering remarks like connection to power steering pump, effect on power steering while braking in corners etc etc. It is one of the options I am still looking at to make our 5-ton safer but I did not find anybody yet who really has done that conversion on anything like a Deuce or bigger.
Another Ahab
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Following your lead could help avoid "re-inventing the wheel" for a plan thats sounding practical. Would you consider sharing the particulars of the California company and the setup you ordered?
HanksDeuce
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The company is Power Brake Service, http://powerbrakeservice.net. I'm waiting for them to send me an invoice so I know what they put together for my application. When I know more I will post again.
Another Ahab
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So it sounds like they designed a system to fit your "application" (i.e. a Deuce). That how it works?
HanksDeuce
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Yes. I told him what brake calipers I was using, and the vehicle it was going on. I told him the current weight of the deuce and a GVWR of 20,000 lbs. That helps them size the master cylinder bore and size of reservoir. I will have more information in a week or so.
gary1978
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Any updates to report on the brake system?
HanksDeuce
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My brake system shipped out today from California. He made a few last minute changes. I will post more when I receive it.
CBR Metalworks
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I did a dual circuit conversion on the 1st deuce I had, I used all A3 parts, bought it all off eBay for about $500.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...conversion-to-M35a3-dual-circuit-brake-system
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...conversion-to-M35a3-dual-circuit-brake-system
orrisd4
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i know im replying to a several year old thread but i poke to the guys apm mentioned , i have him hunting down the prices for the winch compatible dual circuit master cylinder kit, he said it will be a bit pricey , but there is a possibility of a price drop if more than one is ordered. just letting you guys know ill post anything relevant after i hear back from him