- 6,078
- 4,458
- 113
EMP has substantially more range than the lethal ionizing radiation.
CME can also generate an EMP.
The link you didn't read was US Naval Institute..
-
Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
EMP Proofing HMMWV
- Thread starter Hummerhmm
- Start date
CME can also generate an EMP.
The link you didn't read was US Naval Institute..
- 6,078
- 4,458
- 113
Worked for me. Here are screenshots of the relevant information, note particularly the Starfish details under the pic where they experienced the EMP but not ionizing radiation-
Attachments
- 276
- 538
- 93
- Location
- switzerland
But to come back to the topic. And because it was mentioned that HMMWVs were parked with grounding cables.
This only makes sense if they were supplied with power externally or had to be protected from lightning strikes. There must be 500 different rules in 50 different books that prescribe this. Mainly because it makes sense
The fact that an earthing cable turns an HMMWV into a Farrady cage is completely ridiculous. And that this makes it EMP safe even more so. For EMP-safe components, the relevant device must be placed in a Farrady cage. The vehicle alone is definitely not such a cage. The respective device must then be galvanically isolated from all supply lines.
None of this applies to the HMMWV.
This only makes sense if they were supplied with power externally or had to be protected from lightning strikes. There must be 500 different rules in 50 different books that prescribe this. Mainly because it makes sense
The fact that an earthing cable turns an HMMWV into a Farrady cage is completely ridiculous. And that this makes it EMP safe even more so. For EMP-safe components, the relevant device must be placed in a Farrady cage. The vehicle alone is definitely not such a cage. The respective device must then be galvanically isolated from all supply lines.
None of this applies to the HMMWV.
peggrw
Member
- 26
- 58
- 13
- Location
- West Virginia
Was the Chief Engineer at a facility that included EMP testing. Honestly, my expertise in that particular area was pretty much limited to improving long term test capabilities. Only got involved as much as a typical manager for that test area. More of a IR/Radar/Laser/EMC/Computer test guy. The pic is of one of the EMP test stands that I worked with at Patuxent River Naval Air Warfare Center. To be safe, took the picture off the web.
Attachments
- 195
- 273
- 63
- Location
- Flagstaff, Az
Deleted
Last edited:
- 844
- 1,537
- 93
- Location
- Mesa Colorado
As a EE PE in 32 US states (look it up) and a former Pulse power staff member at Los Alamos for 20yrs, it's hard not to read this 3 page thread and laugh. Perhaps a 6month online course in electromagnetic theory (and basic circuits) is in order prior to all the posts here. I've never heard so much nonsense over EMP in my life, but by all means the government/military knows what to do
.
Movies are not science; Eyeballs don't perform engineering; The boogieman is not real. Sorry for the update. But if there's government spending to be had, those are certainly ways to spend it "just in case". Some Admiral/general out there knows best.
"it sneaks in"?, that's a good one. "All military vehicles are EMP proof", that's a better one.
I've seen lightning induced EMP effects in industry. I've seen pulse power induced EMP effects at LANL at >##k Amps. "EMP proof" is not a discrete thing, it doesn't exist. Kinda like "lightning protection", which the DOE loves to spend money on, as a discrete thing, is imaginary. Even a faraday cage can be overwhelmed. It's all right there in the Maxwell/Lentz formulas.
The next time you see lightning within 0-5 miles of your house, and nothing burns out, consider your house EMP proof lol. That's the effective standard of the military "EMP proof".
Consider this, a 3 phase induction motor (or single phase) of fixed nameplate HP can draw/produce INFINITE output power if loaded as such until the heat losses melt the supply feeder wires and the windings itself, and upstream trans. If you can answer why, then you know why there is no such thing as "EMP proof".
A moving magnetic field (pulse is a moving field) will induce an EMF on any conductive material it moves across/thru. That EMF will then induce a proportional current in that material to relieve the EMF. That current will produce Ohmic heat (ohms law) in the conductive material. If the ohmic heat is high enough, the conductive material will melt. (Fuel lines are nice soft metal). That includes your duces, 3116 CATs or any machine that uses metal alloys that melt at less than the temperature of the sun.
.
Q: how strong is the EMP pulse? A: can your LMTV drive over an 18" curb with 25klbs? It's all arbitrary nonsense that allows the DOD to spend money. Science is a continuum.
So, EMP proof your humvee, but don't drive by a ##kAmp discharge test assembly, or park near that tree on the farm that 1M Amp lighting likes to hit.
Lastly, the guy who pointed out the rad effects of a nuke blast is spot on. get in your bunker and put on your MIRA CBRN mask. Fix the burned out computer boards later. Tip: use metal conduit not PCV. 0-5mile away land lightning strikes will fry boards that are connected to wiring in underground PVC pipe.
. Movies are not science; Eyeballs don't perform engineering; The boogieman is not real. Sorry for the update. But if there's government spending to be had, those are certainly ways to spend it "just in case". Some Admiral/general out there knows best.
"it sneaks in"?, that's a good one. "All military vehicles are EMP proof", that's a better one.
I've seen lightning induced EMP effects in industry. I've seen pulse power induced EMP effects at LANL at >##k Amps. "EMP proof" is not a discrete thing, it doesn't exist. Kinda like "lightning protection", which the DOE loves to spend money on, as a discrete thing, is imaginary. Even a faraday cage can be overwhelmed. It's all right there in the Maxwell/Lentz formulas.
The next time you see lightning within 0-5 miles of your house, and nothing burns out, consider your house EMP proof lol. That's the effective standard of the military "EMP proof".
Consider this, a 3 phase induction motor (or single phase) of fixed nameplate HP can draw/produce INFINITE output power if loaded as such until the heat losses melt the supply feeder wires and the windings itself, and upstream trans. If you can answer why, then you know why there is no such thing as "EMP proof".
A moving magnetic field (pulse is a moving field) will induce an EMF on any conductive material it moves across/thru. That EMF will then induce a proportional current in that material to relieve the EMF. That current will produce Ohmic heat (ohms law) in the conductive material. If the ohmic heat is high enough, the conductive material will melt. (Fuel lines are nice soft metal). That includes your duces, 3116 CATs or any machine that uses metal alloys that melt at less than the temperature of the sun.
.Q: how strong is the EMP pulse? A: can your LMTV drive over an 18" curb with 25klbs? It's all arbitrary nonsense that allows the DOD to spend money. Science is a continuum.
So, EMP proof your humvee, but don't drive by a ##kAmp discharge test assembly, or park near that tree on the farm that 1M Amp lighting likes to hit.
Lastly, the guy who pointed out the rad effects of a nuke blast is spot on. get in your bunker and put on your MIRA CBRN mask. Fix the burned out computer boards later. Tip: use metal conduit not PCV. 0-5mile away land lightning strikes will fry boards that are connected to wiring in underground PVC pipe.
This response right here should shut everyone else down. I appreciate the banter, but this is someone who ACTUALLY knows what he is talking about with facts and experience!! This explanation has shut my uneducated narrative down completely. It was fun thinking I was prepping for such an event, but in reality no such thing will ever happen as we assumed. Thanks for taking the time to post this Mathew. I am copying it and saving for future discussions.As a EE PE in 32 US states (look it up) and a former Pulse power staff member at Los Alamos for 20yrs, it's hard not to read this 3 page thread and laugh. Perhaps a 6month online course in electromagnetic theory (and basic circuits) is in order prior to all the posts here. I've never heard so much nonsense over EMP in my life, but by all means the government/military knows what to do
Movies are not science; Eyeballs don't perform engineering; The boogieman is not real. Sorry for the update. But if there's government spending to be had, those are certainly ways to spend it "just in case". Some Admiral/general out there knows best.
"it sneaks in"?, that's a good one. "All military vehicles are EMP proof", that's a better one.
I've seen lightning induced EMP effects in industry. I've seen pulse power induced EMP effects at LANL at >##k Amps. "EMP proof" is not a discrete thing, it doesn't exist. Kinda like "lightning protection", which the DOE loves to spend money on, as a discrete thing, is imaginary. Even a faraday cage can be overwhelmed. It's all right there in the Maxwell/Lentz formulas.
The next time you see lightning within 0-5 miles of your house, and nothing burns out, consider your house EMP proof lol. That's the effective standard of the military "EMP proof".
Consider this, a 3 phase induction motor (or single phase) of fixed nameplate HP can draw/produce INFINITE output power if loaded as such until the heat losses melt the supply feeder wires and the windings itself, and upstream trans. If you can answer why, then you know why there is no such thing as "EMP proof".
A moving magnetic field (pulse is a moving field) will induce an EMF on any conductive material it moves across/thru. That EMF will then induce a proportional current in that material to relieve the EMF. That current will produce Ohmic heat (ohms law) in the conductive material. If the ohmic heat is high enough, the conductive material will melt. (Fuel lines are nice soft metal). That includes your duces, 3116 CATs or any machine that uses metal alloys that melt at less than the temperature of the sun.
Q: how strong is the EMP pulse? A: can your LMTV drive over an 18" curb with 25klbs? It's all arbitrary nonsense that allows the DOD to spend money. Science is a continuum.
So, EMP proof your humvee, but don't drive by a ##kAmp discharge test assembly, or park near that tree on the farm that 1M Amp lighting likes to hit.
Lastly, the guy who pointed out the rad effects of a nuke blast is spot on. get in your bunker and put on your MIRA CBRN mask. Fix the burned out computer boards later. Tip: use metal conduit not PCV. 0-5mile away land lightning strikes will fry boards that are connected to wiring in underground PVC pipe.
- 16,833
- 24,244
- 113
- Location
- Burgkunstadt, Germany
Thank you.
M35fan
Well-known member
- 1,166
- 3,992
- 113
- Location
- Arab, Alabama
EMP-proof vehicles have been around since the stone age. Didn't you guys ever watch "The Flintstones"? 
thompsoncustom
Active member
- 135
- 106
- 43
- Location
- iowa
the CEO of AM general said this about the humvee "It’s essentially bulletproof to EMP"
but I never seen any testing.
if I would worried about it I would just park it in a machine shed with a grounding cable on the outside tin.
but I never seen any testing.
if I would worried about it I would just park it in a machine shed with a grounding cable on the outside tin.
- 1,712
- 2,275
- 113
- Location
- Rosamond, CA
IMO...
I think the term "EMP proof" for any electronic device is going to be a bit crap shoot. (space craft, some military ? But the flood of commercial gear... not so much) Smart boxes and 4 speed TCM with all of the semiconductor (1000's in the CPU +) ready for a pulse and wiring acting as the antenna, it could be proof to POOF !
On a good day , the HumV has a lot going on to start, with all of the electronics.
EMP proof ?? Terms EMP "resistant or harden" (variable protection as to the induced EMP pulse width, frequency, amplitude, distance to source) as to the level of functionality of the device before, during and after might be better to guage the effects. Camoteksystems have no CPU / logic to toast.
The guy with the Tin Hat is more antenna than shield. Poof goes his hair,
LOL
At that point it really doesn't matter.
If one can?? Pick up the pieces and start over, CAMO
I think the term "EMP proof" for any electronic device is going to be a bit crap shoot. (space craft, some military ? But the flood of commercial gear... not so much) Smart boxes and 4 speed TCM with all of the semiconductor (1000's in the CPU +) ready for a pulse and wiring acting as the antenna, it could be proof to POOF !
On a good day , the HumV has a lot going on to start, with all of the electronics.EMP proof ?? Terms EMP "resistant or harden" (variable protection as to the induced EMP pulse width, frequency, amplitude, distance to source) as to the level of functionality of the device before, during and after might be better to guage the effects. Camoteksystems have no CPU / logic to toast.
The guy with the Tin Hat is more antenna than shield. Poof goes his hair,
LOL At that point it really doesn't matter.
If one can?? Pick up the pieces and start over, CAMO
- 844
- 1,537
- 93
- Location
- Mesa Colorado
Thanks, I didn't intend to be disparaging but now that I reread my post, I had to take more of my medication to calm down
. For the "how to test" questions above, I found some generic references everyone can use if they want to "Test" their stuff. Disclaimer: experiments with this stuff usually result in smoked equipment. FYI there is lots and lots of documentation on EM on the web that you can use to design your "protections" as well as test setup. I have a comprehensive book on induction heating which has everything you need. got it on Amazon years ago when all they sold was books.
This following site has some good basic discussion of lightning bolts and field strength of those. 0-1 Tesla is a good baseline number within 0-5 miles:
Magnetic field of a lightning bolt
In a lightning bolt, 14 C of charge flows in a time of 1.5 x 10^-3 s. Assuming that the lightning bolt can be represented as a long, straight line of current, what is the magnitude of the magnetic field at a distance of 27 m from the bolt? do i use 27 m as the radius in the equation B =...
www.physicsforums.com
Also, the attached article from a British Journal discusses EM exposure to workers from welding machines/cables from 2011. Good basic info and it shows the formula for B, which is magnetic field strength on page "12" (page 3 of the pdf). most of the exposures are <500uT (micro teslas). You see a direct proportional relationship between EM strength and i (current) and indirect proportional relationship between distance and EM strength. Remember lightning is running at 1M amps give or take another million.
SO, If you want to baseline test your Humvee, get a 400A welder and place the 2 cables on either side of the Humvee (elevate the cables to the midline of the vehicle and place as close as you can to the body). Also get a Tesla meter or Gauss gauge and place it on the hood. You can convert from Gauss' to Teslas or the meter should automatically. Then go weld some plate with the torch. Turn up the weld current to max. The subsequent current surges thru the cables will induce the EM field between the 2 wires, where the Humvee is parked. If you set the EM guage on min/max, you can capture what field strength you've exposed the Humvee to. Use the formula on page 3 to design where you want to target the exposure. Start small. IF you expose to 500uT then test the Humvee to see if it still works lol. Should be fine at 500uT. (I don't know what the milspec threshold is for active vehicles, probably classified)
From there, to increase your test exposure, you can wrap the work lead cable (or electrode lead) around the humvee (only wrap one lead not both). For each "loop" of wrap, you will be increasing your exposure in T's by 1x. This is Electrical Machines 101. (IT's EXACTLY LIKE A TRANSFORMER WINDING). Don't go above 0.1Teslas IMHO otherwise boards may begin to fry. Glass is not a magnetic short. The "fry" comes from the surge voltage induced on the wires that are exposed to the field. That surge voltage goes back to the terminals. Most boards only have a 500v-1kv withstand for overvoltage. Anyway, For fun practical jokes on friends, if you go high enough on # of wraps, you will melt the doors off the Humvee for long enough duration of weld duty cycle, especially those Aluminum doors on the LMTV. Induction heating at it's best. The idea here is that the continuous steady state exposure is more lethal to conductive components than EMP or pulse EM field of equal amplitude, due to the heat generated. As a test bed, it's more useful and predictable because pulses can be unpredictable for testing equipment. I would use a donor vehicle from GovPlanet as "subject" first, not your nice upgraded Humvee.
Don't use the above setup using AC power please. You WILL melt stuff quickly even at 60hz. That's 60 EMP pulses per second. Induction heating RF supplies use 1-4khz for efficiency but even 60hz can be used for crucible induction heating.
TIP: A practical life hack for getting rid of old cell phones is to place them between the welding cables (<2-4" spacing) while welding and you will wipe the memory and probably worse. That's why I'm very OCD about the placement of my welding cables. keep them close together! otherwise you erase memory cards and phones in your pocket etc. Life lessons are expensive.
- 1,712
- 2,275
- 113
- Location
- Rosamond, CA
Going for one more ride on the EMP bandwagon. LOL
The welding cable to the HumV making it the secondary winding is workable and I... Me wouldn't be standing around with a metal ring on my finger to see LOL. (something to think about
)
Fact, fiction, fear or ??? ... EMP's are real everyday. On earth for now, for the most part is under control. Designs, engineered circuits for everyday with some level of protection. Not so sure about the HumV controllers. If the sun goes wack or the guy with the big button goes wacky, that could be a bigger problem. Fingers crossed nothing goes wack.
Here's an little read to put one at ease or asleep. https://noji.com/emp/emp.php
Stay safe, be nice to your neighbor, PMCS the HumV and buy LOTS of tin foil... LOL, CAMO
Exchange the word HAM to HumV
The welding cable to the HumV making it the secondary winding is workable and I... Me wouldn't be standing around with a metal ring on my finger to see LOL. (something to think about
)Fact, fiction, fear or ??? ... EMP's are real everyday. On earth for now, for the most part is under control. Designs, engineered circuits for everyday with some level of protection. Not so sure about the HumV controllers. If the sun goes wack or the guy with the big button goes wacky, that could be a bigger problem. Fingers crossed nothing goes wack.
Here's an little read to put one at ease or asleep. https://noji.com/emp/emp.php
Stay safe, be nice to your neighbor, PMCS the HumV and buy LOTS of tin foil... LOL, CAMO
Exchange the word HAM to HumV
Last edited:
- 844
- 1,537
- 93
- Location
- Mesa Colorado
That's a good link! And yes take the ring off, much like when having an MRI doneGoing for one more ride on the EMP bandwagon. LOL
The welding cable to the HumV making it the secondary winding is workable and I... Me wouldn't be standing around with a metal ring on my finger to see LOL. (something to think about
Fact, fiction, fear or ??? ... EMP's are real everyday. On earth for now, for the most part is under control. Designs, engineered circuits for everyday with some level of protection. Not so sure about the HumV controllers. If the sun goes wack or the guy with the big button goes wacky, that could be a bigger problem. Fingers crossed nothing goes wack.
Here's an little read to put one at ease or asleep. https://noji.com/emp/emp.php
Stay safe, be nice to your neighbor, PMCS the HumV and buy LOTS of tin foil, CAMO
Exchange the word HAM to HumV
- 4,406
- 4,193
- 113
- Location
- Brentwood, Calif
I’ve literally been hearing of this EMP crap for over 25yrs from people, as I’ve told anyone who cares….you got bigger issues if there is a
directed EMP strike, and it ain’t your hmmwv you should be thinking about.
27yrs of CBRN crap and we really didn’t touch much on EMP, now…Chem, Bio and Nuke?, that’s a different story.
directed EMP strike, and it ain’t your hmmwv you should be thinking about.
27yrs of CBRN crap and we really didn’t touch much on EMP, now…Chem, Bio and Nuke?, that’s a different story.
- 285
- 588
- 93
- Location
- Portland, OR
In my experience people's concern with EMPs is inversely proportional to their understanding of EMPs
- 16,833
- 24,244
- 113
- Location
- Burgkunstadt, Germany
I’ve literally been hearing of this EMP crap for over 25yrs from people, as I’ve told anyone who cares….you got bigger issues if there is a
directed EMP strike, and it ain’t your hmmwv you should be thinking about.
27yrs of CBRN crap and we really didn’t touch much on EMP, now…Chem, Bio and Nuke?, that’s a different story.
During the 20 + years in the Army, CBR/NBC was the only thing that really scared the crap out of me.
directed EMP strike, and it ain’t your hmmwv you should be thinking about.
27yrs of CBRN crap and we really didn’t touch much on EMP, now…Chem, Bio and Nuke?, that’s a different story.
During the 20 + years in the Army, CBR/NBC was the only thing that really scared the crap out of me.