engine pre lube pump

[dmetalmiki]

Well I had an engine oil primer pump fitted ( to my recently bought back deuce) that was giving problems, and have replaced it with a similar better working pump and re routed the piping. Also increased the wiring gauge for max performance. The system now works really well. I had to change the engine twice! to remove the crud..but all seems good now.
Tomorrow we re paint the vehicle, and it should be almost completed. l

 

[WillWagner]

Why?

 

[mhassett]

Are you concerned about the pump or hoses snagging on anything?

 

[dmetalmiki]

Hmm, Why Not!..I have 60 psi on the gauge when I press the go button. (surely better than waiting for 30 seconds for ANY oil pressure build up.) And No I am Not worried about fouling..I have absolutely no intention for abusing this truck off (any) road.
https://youtu.be/zMFD4loIEOI

 

[M35A2-AZ]

I see the one hose end goes to the oil pan, what does the other hose hook to?

 

[WillWagner]

It goes to the main oil rifle. Pre lube set ups are normally used in generator applications that start and go to rated RPM, loaded. In the stuff I have worked on, it seems to work in those deals. In automotive use, they have shown not to be an advantage unless the operator is the kind of person that thinks starting and then going to WOT is the thing to do. In that case the operator is the weak link and shouldn't be using the equipment. In automotive applications, the engine starts and idles. There is sufficient oil film to more than adequately keep rod, main, cam, wrist pin journals lubed on start up. If you have ever taken an engine apart, even if the engine has been sitting for extended periods, there is still mass quantities of oil in all of the passages. If this was an issue, engine manufacturers would have incorporated this system into engines long ago. Oil is engineered for start up lube issues.

I was involved in a study with UPS. They had issues with cams failing very fast. I have seen trucks leave the shop Friday afternoon and be hooked back on Monday with a failed cam. Cummins tried pre lube systems on the UPS trucks. Some of the trucks had no pre lubers, some did. Some used the oil UPS was using, some were using oil supplied by Cummins. The non pre lubed and pre lubed engines with Cummins supplied oil, Valvoline 15w40 non synthetic, IIRC CF4 at the time, showed no difference in the bearing wear after 6 months of testing, something like 60-80k on the engines. The engines that used the oil supplied by UPS, pre lubed or not, failed in days, weeks, months, continuously, repeatedly, for the test period. Bearings were rep[laced and in some cases the engines needed cranks. It all boils down to using good oil.

UPS used, and still uses reclaimed oil. They centrifuge it and add an additive package to it. They quit using Cummins because they didn't like what they were told and did several switches of engine manufacturers. They are now mostly Mack. They are having constant oil pressure issues and failures

What the OP has done is create another leak path, failure point.

Just an opinion, everyone has them. It is his stuff, he can do what he likes.

 

[o1951]

[QUOTE

What the OP has done is create another leak path, failure point.

Just an opinion, everyone has them. It is his stuff, he can do what he likes.[/QUOTE]

Problems I see -
pre-lube pump suction is at pan drain. Unless there is a filter we do not see, any crud or sediment will get pumped directly to bearings!
Besides being low hanging, using drain tapping as the suction point makes oil changes difficult.
Wiring in picture of batteries is dodgy at best.

 

[WillWagner]

[QUOTE

What the OP has done is create another leak path, failure point.

Just an opinion, everyone has them. It is his stuff, he can do what he likes.

They are usually plumbed to the main oil rifle before the filter, looks like the outlet line crosses under the pan to the filter side of the engine.

Problems I see -
pre-lube pump suction is at pan drain. Unless there is a filter we do not see, any crud or sediment will get pumped directly to bearings!
Besides being low hanging, using drain tapping as the suction point makes oil changes difficult.
Wiring in picture of batteries is dodgy at best.[/QUOTE]

 

[dmetalmiki]

The pump itself had a fine copper mesh filter inlet.
Oil changes no problem, Simply undo the connection and drop the pipe.
Dirty oil? ( my vehicles are oil changed every year regardless.) But in case, the oil is pumped to the filter. Not the gallery.
And I appreciate the research posted, BUT..tell that to all the M series truck owners with the number five rod through the block! Anyone that can sit and wait for up to half a minute for oil pressure to appear and only then hear the turbo (bearings) getting lubricated. has less qualms than I. The military can Afford to "chuck out low longevity" items, But as a private collector and (just a retired hobbyist) I for one can not.
I have used the M.Series trucks for over 30 years, and hope I qualify (some) for "appropriate" experience and passing on useful benefits in kind and type. No offense in any way intended. This is, as are all my posts just hopefully passing on (some to use or not) Useful tips, And offer some Entertainment AND encouragement. My 3/4 penne'th.

 

[jbayer]

Well I had an engine oil primer pump fitted ( to my recently bought back deuce) that was giving problems, and have replaced it with a similar better working pump and re routed the piping. Also increased the wiring gauge for max performance. The system now works really well. I had to change the engine twice! to remove the crud..but all seems good now.
Tomorrow we re paint the vehicle, and it should be almost completed. l

I'd like to do this Mod also, but will probably drop the pan and weld a bung in on the side.
What pump is it that you used. P/N, source?
Thanks

 

[bennym45]

I helped to fit this same oil pump to the m45 530c fire truck in my avatar. it came from the internet source and works quite well. It struggles with really cold thick oil but still raises pressure and fills the filter cans and turbo.

 

[o1951]

ok the wiring if not noticed is heavy gauge 50 amp fireproof cable.
QUOTE]

Hi, Don't know about over there, but I did some insurance claim inspecting, and frankly, if your truck had an incident, the major carriers in this country would deny your claim.

The battery box in post 1 appears to show multiple loose, free, unsupported wires resting on the batteries or the edge of the metal battery box without protection. Wires should be properly supported and in a proper loom, not resting on the batteries or edge of metal battery tray itself. Resting inline fuses on a battery, where acid vapors may be present is also cause for concern.

There appear to be multiple splices with unraveling tape, and a damaged cloth covered wire in contact with the battery at the rear of the picture. There is a preponderance of red wire powering what appear to be different functions. It is standard practice to use different colored wire for different functions.

Over here, we use the IASCA wire size chart or equal for automotive wire sizing. As you can see, over 4 feet, 50 amps requires a minimum of 8 gauge, and over 10 feet, 6 gauge.

System Amperage	0-4 ft.​	4-7 ft.​	7-10 ft.​	10-13 ft.​	13-16 ft.​	16-19 ft.​	19-22 ft.​	22-28 ft.​
0 - 20	14	12	12	10	10	8	8	8
20-35	12	10	8	8	6	6	6	4
35-50	10	8	8	6	4	4	4	4
50-65	8	8	6	4	4	4	4	2
68-85	6	6	4	4	2	2	2	0
85-105	6	6	4	2	2	2	2	0
105-125	4	4	4	2	0	0	0	0
125-150	2	2	2	0	0	0	0	00

I am sure your methods have worked for you, but over here, most insurers would consider them unacceptable.

 

[rustystud]

It goes to the main oil rifle. Pre lube set ups are normally used in generator applications that start and go to rated RPM, loaded. In the stuff I have worked on, it seems to work in those deals. In automotive use, they have shown not to be an advantage unless the operator is the kind of person that thinks starting and then going to WOT is the thing to do. In that case the operator is the weak link and shouldn't be using the equipment. In automotive applications, the engine starts and idles. There is sufficient oil film to more than adequately keep rod, main, cam, wrist pin journals lubed on start up. If you have ever taken an engine apart, even if the engine has been sitting for extended periods, there is still mass quantities of oil in all of the passages. If this was an issue, engine manufacturers would have incorporated this system into engines long ago. Oil is engineered for start up lube issues.

I was involved in a study with UPS. They had issues with cams failing very fast. I have seen trucks leave the shop Friday afternoon and be hooked back on Monday with a failed cam. Cummins tried pre lube systems on the UPS trucks. Some of the trucks had no pre lubers, some did. Some used the oil UPS was using, some were using oil supplied by Cummins. The non pre lubed and pre lubed engines with Cummins supplied oil, Valvoline 15w40 non synthetic, IIRC CF4 at the time, showed no difference in the bearing wear after 6 months of testing, something like 60-80k on the engines. The engines that used the oil supplied by UPS, pre lubed or not, failed in days, weeks, months, continuously, repeatedly, for the test period. Bearings were rep[laced and in some cases the engines needed cranks. It all boils down to using good oil.

UPS used, and still uses reclaimed oil. They centrifuge it and add an additive package to it. They quit using Cummins because they didn't like what they were told and did several switches of engine manufacturers. They are now mostly Mack. They are having constant oil pressure issues and failures

What the OP has done is create another leak path, failure point.

Just an opinion, everyone has them. It is his stuff, he can do what he likes.

I am with you on this. Having worked at Fleet shops who used recycled oil I know what good and bad oil can do. When I first bought my Deuce I wanted to add a pre-luber system, but after adding the spin-on oil filter adapters I don't feel it is necessary anymore. Having torn down engines that sat for years I agree about all the oil still laying around the block and on the bearings. Also when you first go to start the engine, the oil pump starts pumping out a tremendous amount of oil immediately by just cranking the engine over. So use a good oil and add spin-on oil filters and your Golden !

 

[rustystud]

ok the wiring if not noticed is heavy gauge 50 amp fireproof cable.
QUOTE]

Hi, Don't know about over there, but I did some insurance claim inspecting, and frankly, if your truck had an incident, the major carriers in this country would deny your claim.

The battery box in post 1 appears to show multiple loose, free, unsupported wires resting on the batteries or the edge of the metal battery box without protection. Wires should be properly supported and in a proper loom, not resting on the batteries or edge of metal battery tray itself. Resting inline fuses on a battery, where acid vapors may be present is also cause for concern.

There appear to be multiple splices with unraveling tape, and a damaged cloth covered wire in contact with the battery at the rear of the picture. There is a preponderance of red wire powering what appear to be different functions. It is standard practice to use different colored wire for different functions.

Over here, we use the IASCA wire size chart or equal for automotive wire sizing. As you can see, over 4 feet, 50 amps requires a minimum of 8 gauge, and over 10 feet, 6 gauge.

System Amperage	0-4 ft.​	4-7 ft.​	7-10 ft.​	10-13 ft.​	13-16 ft.​	16-19 ft.​	19-22 ft.​	22-28 ft.​
0 - 20	14	12	12	10	10	8	8	8
20-35	12	10	8	8	6	6	6	4
35-50	10	8	8	6	4	4	4	4
50-65	8	8	6	4	4	4	4	2
68-85	6	6	4	4	2	2	2	0
85-105	6	6	4	2	2	2	2	0
105-125	4	4	4	2	0	0	0	0
125-150	2	2	2	0	0	0	0	00

I am sure your methods have worked for you, but over here, most insurers would consider them unacceptable.

Watch those battery cables ! I've seen several busses burn to the ground because of improperly routed cables !

 

[dmetalmiki]

Firstly, thank you all for commenting.

However, Firstly, I am not running a Bus or passenger carrying fleet. And i am not running a Commercial heavy goods Vehicle Company, For "Hire or Reward"
in the UK there are No vehicle type approval, Construction and ,Use,or plating and testing requirements for vehicle registered before 1st January 1960. Or in the Historic, Veteran, or classic classes. IN PRIVATE USE and NOT used for HIRE and reward. AND, Driven UNLADEN (and can pull) an UNLADEN trailer.
The posted comments should be noted heed taken by EVERYONE who decides to carry out ANY additions or alterations To ANY vehicle they own. And that does include Tow Bars, Hitches, Lights, spring lifts, Trailers, truck beds, Engines Wheel size changes, Suspension lifts etc, electrical items, the list goes on.(bought, Made up, Or otherwise).. And who might require compliance with Laws and applicable regulations to them and their Location.
Again in the U.K. PRIVATE for own use vehicle are not subject to "construction and use" regulations for their own personally fitted Items and extras.
Any Modifications like fitting a stereo, Cd multi changer, H.D. Or halogen blue lights and are are carried by any vehicle owner who so chooses to are not "subject" to M.O.T. testing rules and regulations.
The battery has to Clamped and or secure, or restrained only. You can attach OR wire up whatever accessory you choose to.
We have a great deal of freedom to enhance our vehicles with SOME modifications not having a detriment to regulations OR insurances. (tires lighting and performance enhancements etc not included)
I do not wish to be embroiled in tit for tat, However, In the event something or someone AT FAULT, hit my vehicle and caused damage I doubt having "accessories" wired in ! would nullify my insurance.
I just checked with, VOSA. and an HGV testing station, also an MOT station and MY insurance company.
There are no adverse comments or recommendations at all as to the wiring on any of my Historic Vehicles.
Again, thank you all for taking the time to put a point across, And Members just Be aware of what Laws, regulations and stipulations apply to your specific vehicle, collection. and use.

 

[74M35A2]

First, I think it is way cool that you own a tracked vehicle. Second, also way cool of you to support from England. I used to think I wanted a pre-lube pump on all my stuff, until I started rebuilding engines more. It seems engines really depend on oil pressure once the engine is under load. At just idle, the only load is reciprocating the piston and rod weight at a slow speed, which is not much in comparison to the load the rod and bearing are actually designed to max carry. Sure, it is going to be better to have oil pressure than not, but when doing it for a Chevy 350 for example, I could not get past the idea of forcing pressure in the reverse direction against an oil bypass or check valve, like what would be found in a typical automotive filter. Maybe a low psi would be OK like 5psi or less. It would also push oil filter debris backwards toward the pump if the pump allowed flow in the reverse direction, which is pretty hard to do, given the whole gear-rotor design of it being a positive displacement type pump. I would have to side with others and say I would not draw from the drain plug bottom due to debris and hose risk. That would be OK on a dyno but nobody would let that go on the road. I installed a Fumoto drain valve and don't even like it sticking down 1/2", but I do take my truck off road, over cars, through snow banks, etc... We do starter development and part of that now with most all cars and even trucks now is the engine starting and stopping 350,000 times to simulate 10 years of shutting off at stoplights. That number used to be 40,000 before start-stop. We have cycled through multiple starters on some engines, so now some engines have over 1 million starts on them, and they showed no sign of oil starvation. So, there are some numbers on it, non-opinionated. Sorry my paragraph spacing still does not work correctly. The warnings of battery cables and such are OK, but you should see some of the storage area pics of the ones posting them. Their insurance companies would not like what they would see either. I didn't see any battery box pics. My mom is in need of rear calipers/rotor/pads for her Jaguar XJS, I bet you can obtain them easily over there!

 

[rustystud]

. The warnings of battery cables and such are OK, but you should see some of the storage area pics of the ones posting them. Their insurance companies would not like what they would see either.

Hey, is that a jab at me ? I'll have you know my storage is in a metal container away from anything that can be harmed if the whole thing burst into flames and burnt to the ground in a blaze of glory ! I have 5 acres and plenty of room to store stuff. I also keep all my vehicle battery compartments totally clean and all cables properly routed and supported.
So how is your battery compartment ?

 

[74M35A2]

No, it is not a jab at you. I love your treasure trove. My battery compartment is fine. I threw the factory ones out and replaced them with 2 group 31's to free up space. They are properly bolted down and the factory cables fastened correctly. Not much to see or talk about. Filling the newfound under seat space with my heater box, a 5 channel Alpine amplifier, and a 10" Bazooka subwoofer in an attempt to enjoy some music on my SAT/NAV/HDD radio (2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Garmin nav head unit).