Engine Prelube Info....

[Otter]

Hello,
Posted in another thread:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Engi...005QQitemZ150126700886QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V
Foun it on e-Bay
eric

 

[builder77]

We all know that there are lots of prelube systems out there. This is an example of an automotive one that would not be appropriate for duece usage. If for no other reason that is almost defiantly 12V. The controller would be toast very quickly. It is probably too small too. The seller did not bother to tell anyone any info on it. Plus that is only half the problem as there are no oil supply locations on the deuce that don't require fabrication.

 

[houdel]

Ethan - care to name some commercially available pre lube systems? I've had a hard time finding anything out there. I agree the one on Ebay would be a poor choice. That brand IS available in 24V but they are pretty expensive and only have a 1/4 hp motor. It would eventually fill the system, but to quickly fill the system AND have 10 psi or so oil pressure in the system when you start cranking would take 3/4 to 1 hp. As for an oil pickup, as a band-aid approach you could drill and tap the drain plug for a pickup. That may be a bit risky for off road use but the drain plug sits over a foot higher than the bottom of the front differential. I noticed my engine has an extra boss identical to the dipstick boss about 6" forward of the dipstick, I was thinking of drilling and tapping the extra boss for an oil pickup. Or you could drop the oil pan and install a fitting in the side of the oil pan, but that would be a real PITA.

 

[builder77]

devilman pointed out a commercial preluber in one of these threads. It looked like good quality. There are also quality prelubers on ebay on occasions. That like the one on the first page of this thread are built on a starter type motor with a quality pump. I have not seen them for several months though probably because no one would buy them at the price they wanted. From talking to my friend who was a diesel mechanic they are available at shops that specialize in delivery trucks and up. Again they are expensive. I don't see any of these advertised much so you have to look.

I may be dismissive of pumps like these as I have seen so many questionable pumps on ebay. This one actually looks good for a CUCV or smaller vehicle. It looks to be a gear pump which is what the commercial ones use. Much better then an insecticide sprayer pump. I guess for me it comes to this. I know I will be adding a preluber, but I want to make sure that I find one that will be of sufficient size and quality that I don't regret it at a later date. Spend the money and effort once.

 

[cranetruck]

I bet you could make a pretty simple manually operated pump. Any oil pressure is better than none and the TM calls out 10 psi as a minimum at idle...

 

[Flatlander]

Would it be possible to use a 24v starter motor attached to a power steering pump? The motor could also serve as a spare in a pinch...I don't know what a power steering pump flows, but I'm thinking a coupler like the one used on the Oasis off-road air compressor could work.

 

[Otter]

Hey,
I am amazed, $230.00, for a system that for all intents and purposes is ready to install. Yet here are bunches of replies suggesting $30.00 sprayer pumps and $350.00 pumps for hydraulic cylinders. As a mechanic who has made a living working on aircraft and fabricating hot rod cars for a nationally recognized fabricator, I have always told my customers "Its cheaper to buy it already made than have me fabricate it for you" The question of checkvalves were brought up and no real good answer was agreed upon. Lessee you would trust the very engine you are trying to preserve with a jury rigged collection of parts you bought from a surplus supply, rather than a purpose designed and built unit? Did any one look at the marine or heavy duty diesel units? Most of the questions that were asked here were answered by the manufacturer. Again I am amazed, I will be installing the Marine 12v preluber, that I bought on e-Bay for $204.00.
Good luck with your cobbled up collection of stuff, I will bet the shipping on the replacment engine alone will be more than the cost of a new preluber at retail prices.
Have fun swapping your engine when the collection of surplus fails.
eric

 

[OPCOM]

To say such things... Many people here know how to cobble up stuff quite well. Why, just Wednesday night, I cobbled up an IEC61000 standard automatic power crossing generator for a guy at work that needed to run tests Thursday morning for a favorite customer. Took 6 hours, and will last many years (and perhaps electrocute a few engineers if they are careless).. a commercial one starts at about $5000, has more plastic parts, will also electrocute engineers, and is prettier. Mine came from parts lying around on my workshop shelves. Of course this is nowhere near as complicated as a metal gear-pump, a switch, some good hoses, and an electric motor. Just making a polite point..

The fine jobs we have seen here, from 'Diabolo' to the various niceties of the Cranetruck, to the remote and spin on adapters.. Very fine cobbling! It's unfair to poke at the workmanship. Let's have useful fun creating well thouht out subystems for the deuce and showing/reporting on theminstead.

 

[cranetruck]

.....
Good luck with your cobbled up collection of stuff, I will bet the shipping on the replacment engine alone will be more than the cost of a new preluber at retail prices.
Have fun swapping your engine when the collection of surplus fails.
eric

Otter, the vintage MV's are like large erector kits for grown-ups and we love to tinker with them, take them apart and put them back together in different configurations.
Buying something already assembled is a little like cheating, we often try to use parts around the garage to "cobble up" things.

Money is often a big issue. A new engine can be had for a few hundred bucks and buying a preluber for $200-300 is a lot of money to try to extend the life of an engine, which may not cost as much.

Another thing is that if it was truly a matter of needing these add-ons, we'd buy them. Very few of us really need these things, it's a hobby and most of the fun is discussing solutions and cobbling up solutions.
Who cares if the this engine gets 100,000 or 500,000 hrs of life when most may only get 1,000 or 2,000 over a period of 50 years.

Having breakdowns adds a flurry of activity on this forum. I myself am looking forward to dropping the oil pan and learning about rod bearings and plastigauges etc, all because fuel leaked into the engine oil.

Looking for parts is a big part of this hobby.

For people trying to make assemblies for sale, it too is mostly for fun since the market is microscopic and selling 3 or 4 units will never recover the cost of development.

The multifuel engine is one of few engines designed to military specifications and there is a challange to discover new things about it. It was designed for a lifespan of 20 years, and be ready to perform its job at any time in any climate. It was not designed for commercial hauling, which involves hundreds of thousands of miles on the road every year.

A preluber is a fun project to discuss, but really, who needs it? The UPS delivery man here starts and stops his truck engine more times in one day than I start and stop my engine in a full year.

....I still think a hand operated preluber might be a good thing for an engine that has been sitting for a long time....hmm

 

[Otter]

Bjorn,
I whole heartedly agree, the tinkering is just one of the many reasons that WE play around with these critters. When one starts getting into the lifeblood of the very machines we are trying to improve, care must be taken if one does not want to turn a running engine in to a yard ornament that the wife would not appreciate. Sure you can get a new engine for a couple a hundred bucks, now ship it and to your location and then the fun installing comes next.. I have been involved in the hobby since the late '80s, and mechanicing and fabricating even longer, and the thought of creating a preluber that would work properly, not potentially fail with disasterous consequences is not impossible, but would require much more resources and time than I want to commit, when a commercial unit is available. The military also uses this approach for many of its needs. The Preluber unit has the pump and control module that will allow post shutdown turbo lubrication. It makes my ears sore to listen to my turbo spin down after shutdown. This turbo came from a LDS, I installed it on my LD465, retarded the injection pump timing, voila the turbo noise and performance, this is the type of mod that I prefer. The only difference between the various LD series engine blocks is the LDS has piston oil cooling jets for the increased heat input. This comes from the research phase of the project. The research phase of the preluber project told me "you dont wanna take that chance, the cost for failure is too great" My issue is from this kind of input: "Would it be possible to use a 24v starter motor attached to a power steering pump? The motor could also serve as a spare in a pinch...I don't know what a power steering pump flows, but I'm thinking a coupler like the one used on the Oasis off-road air compressor could work." I guess this is why I stopped reading the original MilVeh list.
eric

 

[Boatcarpenter]

Hey Otter, you are talking about the preluber as though it is the heart and soul of what keeps the engine running. It is merely a preluber that the truck never had before anyway; so if it does the job for a while, it's an improvement. If someone cobbles one together and it lasts 65 starts and then fails on the 66th, no big deal, the truck has probably hundreds of starts without one anyway. Back to the drawing board to improve it . That one failure does not mean instant destruction of the engine as might the failure of a cobbled oil pump.
Many, many of the Forum members are teriffic fabricators whose talents I am envious of. I have total faith that with the combined skills and knowledge of these members and the sharing of ideas and information a preluber will be designed that will rival anything on the market and be just perfect for our beloved MV's.
By the way, I think Bjorn is on to something; I figure we'll be seeing pictures of a prototype before the summer is over.
BC

 

[Ferroequinologist]

If it wasn't for cobbleing stuff together, I would have to walk everywhere!
Most guys like us collect little oddball bits and pieces of machinery. We also like to use those bits and pieces. Its also about the pride and the 'look what I made' plus, if it breaks, you know the system by heart. There is no calling tech support in India to solve your issues. You go out, roll up your sleeves, and get dirty!

I like the idea of an electric preluber, but my tinkering mind has also turned over Bjorns idea of a manual one. I have a spare light duty hydraulic cylinder in my parts pile, and a large spring. So maybe a foot operated pedel in the cab, that you pump a few times. Using some hose and a couple of checkvalves, you could turn the cylinder into a pump. use the spring as a return to suck the oil in, and your foot to push it out. It may not develope 10psi in the system, but it would fill the oil filters, at least speeding up the wait time.

So what if it fails? you leak a gallon of oil? or don't pump any at all? boo hoo...

I have a hydraulic pump out of an electric forklift that I will be installing on mine. I can build a time delay relay to keep it operating as the turbo coasts down. I probably have one laying around.

Total cost for system estamit? Pump free, timer relay, probably free, if not, cheap. All in all, saving money on the system will help buy parts need elsewhere on the truck. And give me a cool preluber that I can share with all my friends here! Refer back to the 'look what I made'....

Some guys like 'plug and play', thats just fine. Others like to try and design systems that they can call their own. Thats fine too.

Me, I like fabing!

 

[cranetruck]

You got it Adam.
Note to myself: Stop giving away ideas!

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Now, you know there is more than one way to pump oil....

Ahem..
"some things can't be made better, just differently"

I may still try and build it, see how it works. How do you think that rusty tin can I was on managed to stay above water and moving under its own power? The tech manuals were long ago outdated my friend. When you're going to NAPA for parts for a 20,000HP gas turbine engine, you've hit jury rig rock bottom.

If you want to stop giving away ideas, quit showing us all your cool stuff! I would have been great in the 'reverse engineering' think tank of WWII... I usually can see a picture and figure out how it works or is put together.

So I'm already roughing out a model of your Hiab Crane...

 

[Otter]

Hey Otter, you are talking about the preluber as though it is the heart and soul of what keeps the engine running. It is merely a preluber that the truck never had before anyway; so if it does the job for a while, it's an improvement. If someone cobbles one together and it lasts 65 starts and then fails on the 66th, no big deal, the truck has probably hundreds of starts without one anyway. Back to the drawing board to improve it . That one failure does not mean instant destruction of the engine as might the failure of a cobbled oil pump.
Many, many of the Forum members are teriffic fabricators whose talents I am envious of. I have total faith that with the combined skills and knowledge of these members and the sharing of ideas and information a preluber will be designed that will rival anything on the market and be just perfect for our beloved MV's.
By the way, I think Bjorn is on to something; I figure we'll be seeing pictures of a prototype before the summer is over.
BC

This is what I am talking about, where is the prelube system going to be hooked up? Failute of the hose, check valve, or any of the fittings will indeed cause complete and probably total destruction of the engine via loss of oil pressure/flow. This would indeed be the same as a complete and total failure of the oil pump. Lose the oil, lose the engine, plain and simple!
eric

 

[jimk]

Various opinions make for healthy discussion. Different solutions can solve the same problem.JimK

 

[Recovry4x4]

This is what I am talking about, where is the prelube system going to be hooked up? Failute of the hose, check valve, or any of the fittings will indeed cause complete and probably total destruction of the engine via loss of oil pressure/flow. This would indeed be the same as a complete and total failure of the oil pump. Lose the oil, lose the engine, plain and simple!
eric

Couldn't this happen just the same with the kits purchased on Ebay or from any source? Wouldn't really matter if you had the Ebay Inc kit or the Mayapple Brandstedt kit.

 

[FreightTrain]

Guys,your over complicating this.All you need is a pump that can fill the filter canisters and maybe make 3 or 4 PSI of pressure afterwards(Or just enough to move the pressure needle).After that you can fire the engine up and it has oil.Keep it simple.You don't need a preluber that can crank out 10-20PSI of oil pressure in the engine by itself.You just need something to get the oil system "Primed" so when you fire the engine up the real oil pump has a head start.Maybe add an ultra low pressure gauge so you can detect the low pressure in the oiling system when everthing is primed.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Not to get too far O.T., Opcom, hows that flux-capacitor comin along?

 

[builder77]

Perfect timing on the manual preluber. I used my friends remote motorcycle fuel tank to fill the oil cans as much as possible. My M35 had been sitting since Aberdeen with part of that time having the filters removed. I had the hose hooked up to the valve I installed in the oil filter drain plug that I had showed a pic of in my adapter thread. Then I just filled it partly with oil, and hung it off the top of the open hood. Gravity did its thing. Not very practical, but it did appear to help get oil pressure fairly quickly. This could obviously cause some over filling of the oil pan if done to often, but factoring it in during a regular oil change would help.

Houdel I noticed that extra boss in front of the dipstick now that you mentioned it. I am going to be taking the pan off of a multifuel, and I will take some pics of what it looks like from the inside of the casting. I would be a little worried about drilling it freehand, but it might work. It would probably require dropping the oil pan if you did that too as you would have to get the metal shavings out.