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RE: pre lube
Thanks builder.
Thanks builder.
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Engine Prelube Info....
- Thread starter houdel
- Start date
RE: pre lube
Email sent to McDonalds Trading Post for one pump unit. I will be the guinea pig for this project. I will order a pump with the adapters included but not installed so I can see if i can find a set of adapters with the correct thread to adapt the pump to standard fittings. My intent is to start with a drilled and tapped 3/8" NPT drain plug (thanks to builder77) and pump through the filter drain port. If this works, I plan to eventually drill and tap a 1/2" pickup through the boss forward of the drain plug boss. I WILL post photos of the installation as I go along. This project will take some time, so do not expect a report for at least a month or two!
Email sent to McDonalds Trading Post for one pump unit. I will be the guinea pig for this project. I will order a pump with the adapters included but not installed so I can see if i can find a set of adapters with the correct thread to adapt the pump to standard fittings. My intent is to start with a drilled and tapped 3/8" NPT drain plug (thanks to builder77) and pump through the filter drain port. If this works, I plan to eventually drill and tap a 1/2" pickup through the boss forward of the drain plug boss. I WILL post photos of the installation as I go along. This project will take some time, so do not expect a report for at least a month or two!
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RE: pre lube
Well, you would want to fill the filters to do any good, I would think. Yeah, the "prefilter" port is the one.
Well, you would want to fill the filters to do any good, I would think. Yeah, the "prefilter" port is the one.
RE: pre lube
The large plug centered between the two cans is the plug that the bypass valve for the filters is mounted in. It can't be used for a plug unless you do something else with the the bypass valve. That plug holds a spring and plunger that makes up the valve.
I need to take some pics of the valve and start a thread on that as I would like to get some feedback on how much of a shim increases the pressure needed to bypass as discussed in some earlier threads.
The large plug centered between the two cans is the plug that the bypass valve for the filters is mounted in. It can't be used for a plug unless you do something else with the the bypass valve. That plug holds a spring and plunger that makes up the valve.
I need to take some pics of the valve and start a thread on that as I would like to get some feedback on how much of a shim increases the pressure needed to bypass as discussed in some earlier threads.
dmetalmiki
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oil supply
?? the engine oil pump takes oil from the sump..wence it goes through the filters..primers (also) take (the same) oil from the same same source AND send that oil THROUGH the filters...(at the filter block housing)obviating the point of FILLING the EMPtY(drained) filter cannistors..
?? the engine oil pump takes oil from the sump..wence it goes through the filters..primers (also) take (the same) oil from the same same source AND send that oil THROUGH the filters...(at the filter block housing)obviating the point of FILLING the EMPtY(drained) filter cannistors..
Re: RE: pre lube
Correct. I was not referring to that plug, but the 1/2" or so plug at the bottom rear of the filter housing next to the oil cooler. That is the drain plug, it is an unfiltered port, so oil from the prelubricator will flow up into the filter cans, around and through the filters, and thus be filtered before it reaches the oil galleries.builder77 said:
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RE: Re: RE: pre lube
It may not be popular to use the oil pan drain around here, but there's a drain plug fitting for the deuce oil pan that is very heavy duty and has two NPT holes. It came in the pelube kit I ordered and will soon install (weather permitting) The thread is 7/8-18 UNF (whatever UNF means) according to them. It was $20, and I'm not removoing the pan nor do I go 10-wheeling in the top heavy beast.
About the picture of the pump, the pump has a 40PSI bypass valve on it so that the pump is not working against the 70LBS pressure of the deuce oiling system once the truck starts. To prevent the deuce's high cold pressure oil from trying to go back into the prelube pump, a check valve is also provided. The kit with the pre and post lube timer unit and all the fittings, hoses, etc, is not for the frugal, costing about $675. I am sure it could have been made up for less and I'm sure I could have made the timer myself to save a few $, we shall see with these pumps y'all are buying how it works out. Now that people are getting serious about the subject it will be a pleasure to see the various installs and learn about them.
It may not be popular to use the oil pan drain around here, but there's a drain plug fitting for the deuce oil pan that is very heavy duty and has two NPT holes. It came in the pelube kit I ordered and will soon install (weather permitting) The thread is 7/8-18 UNF (whatever UNF means) according to them. It was $20, and I'm not removoing the pan nor do I go 10-wheeling in the top heavy beast.
About the picture of the pump, the pump has a 40PSI bypass valve on it so that the pump is not working against the 70LBS pressure of the deuce oiling system once the truck starts. To prevent the deuce's high cold pressure oil from trying to go back into the prelube pump, a check valve is also provided. The kit with the pre and post lube timer unit and all the fittings, hoses, etc, is not for the frugal, costing about $675. I am sure it could have been made up for less and I'm sure I could have made the timer myself to save a few $, we shall see with these pumps y'all are buying how it works out. Now that people are getting serious about the subject it will be a pleasure to see the various installs and learn about them.
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bottleworks
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Cool deal. What's the specs on the pump?
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Surprisingly they did not seem to have much information on that. I am sure they are buying it somewhere. He did swear that I'd have 20-45 PSI for the cranking, so it can't be too much of a slouch. The PSI is limited to 45 by the bypass valve, so it comes down to pump volume for the ultimate pressure. Their motors are rated in "amps".. the 7.5A/24v one being of the "heavy duty" variety. 7.5 amps at 24 volts is something like 1/5 HP. I guess if I wanted a GPM/PSI rating, it would have to include the oil type and oil temperature. I was looking at the nameplate in the pic. of the pumps offered surplus, but could not make out the amperes draw. Can it be read? But that would be for fuel? -and it would be substantially higher for oil, especially cold. In fact, it might be prudent to place a 0.1 to 1 ohm resistance in series with the surplus pump motor for use with oil, to keep the peak current draw down to a reasonable level and not start burning brushes and commutators?
One question - I see the pump is a gerotor type, vs. the gear type that I have bought. What is the priming characteristic -perhaps better than the gear type?
One question - I see the pump is a gerotor type, vs. the gear type that I have bought. What is the priming characteristic -perhaps better than the gear type?
A nice package if you can afford it. I doubt a 1/5 hp pump will get you 45 psi though, even with warm oil. It should give you enough flow to fill the cannisters and give you 10 psi or so once the cannisters and oil galleries are filled which is certainly adequate for what is needed. The duece oil system is so huge that it has a very low hydraulic resistance, so it takes a high oil flow rate to build up much pressure.OPCOM said:
I did some rough estimating for flowing 10 gpm at 20 psi of engine oil at 70F and came up with a guestimated 3/4 to 1 hp motor required. The situation gets real nasty at 0F, at that temperature the oil is 10 times as viscous compared to 70F oil.
I don't have a problem with the drain plug oil pickup either. Builder77 was kind enough to supply me with a drain plug tapped 3/8" NPT (the largest you can go without weakening the drain plug side walls) to prototype my prelube system. Some serious off roaders might have a concern, but when you consider the front sump plug is 24" off the ground while the bottom of the front axle pumpkin is only 10.5" off the ground, anything that hits the drain plug is going to mash some other expensive hardware as well.
When you get your system installed please shoot us some good data - time to build pressure, max oil pressure you get with your prelubricator alone, and ambient temperature during your testing. This information will be valuable to those of us trying to fab up our own systems.
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RE: Re: RE: pump
Accumulator update. System works but at 3.75qt there is not enough cap to fill completely drained down filters and galleries (a tandem accumulator would ). It does reduce oil gauge lag from 22 sec to 3 or 5sec. The remote air tank increases capacity but leaves no room in the accumulator for air. Without air slight changes in ambient air temp alter the dimension slightly. With no air cushion inside accumulator pressure can increase while parked and it often pegging the oil gauge. I have destroyed 4 gauges now, the last a liq. filled 160psi. I now dump a tiny bit of oil after filling. That is easy to do, as is operating this system, but I use it only to charge engine after sitting a week or so. I feel a dashboard mounted, toggle switch controlled, prelube pump superior as ease of use is very important. JimK
Accumulator update. System works but at 3.75qt there is not enough cap to fill completely drained down filters and galleries (a tandem accumulator would ). It does reduce oil gauge lag from 22 sec to 3 or 5sec. The remote air tank increases capacity but leaves no room in the accumulator for air. Without air slight changes in ambient air temp alter the dimension slightly. With no air cushion inside accumulator pressure can increase while parked and it often pegging the oil gauge. I have destroyed 4 gauges now, the last a liq. filled 160psi. I now dump a tiny bit of oil after filling. That is easy to do, as is operating this system, but I use it only to charge engine after sitting a week or so. I feel a dashboard mounted, toggle switch controlled, prelube pump superior as ease of use is very important. JimK
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RE: Re: RE: pump
Even if the pressure doesn't build up, you have achieved a lot by filling the oil canisters and oil cooler, that's essentially all I'm able to do with my hand pump (posted in a different thread)...
Even if the pressure doesn't build up, you have achieved a lot by filling the oil canisters and oil cooler, that's essentially all I'm able to do with my hand pump (posted in a different thread)...
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RE: Re: RE: pump
Yes, and it's nice to put stuff [gathering dust] to work.
I should point out that my gauge time [used here] were all at idle, and at 600-650 rpm. It was/is a LD engine, though last week I raised the idle to 800-850rpm. That would/has reduced the time lag . By how much? I can't really say because I haven't checked. JimK
Yes, and it's nice to put stuff [gathering dust] to work.
I should point out that my gauge time [used here] were all at idle, and at 600-650 rpm. It was/is a LD engine, though last week I raised the idle to 800-850rpm. That would/has reduced the time lag . By how much? I can't really say because I haven't checked. JimK
SasquatchSanta
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RE: Re: RE: pump
Houdel Sez:
Thanks --- there has been a tremendious amount of material posted on this subject. I'm trying to sort it out.
Houdel Sez:
Are you referring to the plug that is behind the Oil Cooler Bypass Value? By "behind" I mean "closest to the block"? (See Bjorn's picture on page four of this post).
Thanks --- there has been a tremendious amount of material posted on this subject. I'm trying to sort it out.
SasquatchSanta
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Last week I purchased one of the surplus 24V Bendix pumps from McDonald's Trading Post, Plainview TX. For pictures of the pump see Flatlander's post on page-seven of this thread.
I'll have more information later BUT --- Currently I'm not sure if these pumps are usable. The outlet (pressure side) of the pump had a PVC nipple screwed in and epoxied. When I received the pump the end of the nipple had been broke off in shipment. Afte digging out the broken stub I discovered the threads in the pump head were stripped.
I just received a call from a local machinist that voiced concern about using a helicoil to repair the striped threads. He also voiced concern that there isn't enough meat in the pump head to install oversized threads. Happy-Happy-Joy-Joy!
Unless someone can enlighten me, I'm concerned about using a PVC nipple on the pressure side of a high temperature pump application. The practice in the past has been to cross thread and epoxy the PVC nipple into pump head. Does anyone know if there is any type of special PVC that is more oil and heat resistant than standard PVC?
I sopke with David McDonald at McDonald's Trading Post. He volunteered to try to find a non-stripped head but also said he believes all the pumps already have PVC nipples epoxied in the heads.
The problem (stripped) threads appear to be standard course (non NPT) threads. An O-ring at the bottom of the threads is used to seal the fitting from leaking.
If anyone has any advise, especially about how (IF) to use a form of PVC please don't be bashful.
In the meantime, if you were considering purchasing one of the pumps consider this as a heads up until further notice.
I'll have more information later BUT --- Currently I'm not sure if these pumps are usable. The outlet (pressure side) of the pump had a PVC nipple screwed in and epoxied. When I received the pump the end of the nipple had been broke off in shipment. Afte digging out the broken stub I discovered the threads in the pump head were stripped.
I just received a call from a local machinist that voiced concern about using a helicoil to repair the striped threads. He also voiced concern that there isn't enough meat in the pump head to install oversized threads. Happy-Happy-Joy-Joy!
Unless someone can enlighten me, I'm concerned about using a PVC nipple on the pressure side of a high temperature pump application. The practice in the past has been to cross thread and epoxy the PVC nipple into pump head. Does anyone know if there is any type of special PVC that is more oil and heat resistant than standard PVC?
I sopke with David McDonald at McDonald's Trading Post. He volunteered to try to find a non-stripped head but also said he believes all the pumps already have PVC nipples epoxied in the heads.
The problem (stripped) threads appear to be standard course (non NPT) threads. An O-ring at the bottom of the threads is used to seal the fitting from leaking.
If anyone has any advise, especially about how (IF) to use a form of PVC please don't be bashful.
In the meantime, if you were considering purchasing one of the pumps consider this as a heads up until further notice.
JDToumanian
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Well, that's rather disappointing news, isn't it? However, I've been looking at Flatlander's pics, and I think something can be done to make the pump usable.... But that something is certainly not gluing in a PVC fitting!
Flatlander's pump does not appear to have stripped threads. Also, looking closely at the pic of the bin of pumps at McDonald's, many appear to not have the PVC fittings installed... Does that mean their fittings aren't stripped? I would prefer to get a pump with intact threads and make adapters to fit.
I'd like to know the inside and outside diameters of the area in question on the pump housing, so I can consult Machinery's Handbook. The walls are thin, but I'd be surprised if there was not a thread... like a fine metric thread... that would work.
Even if threaded adapters are not possible, I could probably still make it work. I'd bore out the stripped threads and make a pair of cast iron bushings that are a light press fit in the pump housing and have a suitable (1/2"?) pipe thread in their bore. These bushings would have a lip at the top to allow for a nice fillet of weld after they are pressed into place. Welding cast iron isn't easy, I would have the welding done by a specialist. I scratched up a little Paint drawing of my idea... What do you guys think?
Regards,
Jon
Flatlander's pump does not appear to have stripped threads. Also, looking closely at the pic of the bin of pumps at McDonald's, many appear to not have the PVC fittings installed... Does that mean their fittings aren't stripped? I would prefer to get a pump with intact threads and make adapters to fit.
I'd like to know the inside and outside diameters of the area in question on the pump housing, so I can consult Machinery's Handbook. The walls are thin, but I'd be surprised if there was not a thread... like a fine metric thread... that would work.
Even if threaded adapters are not possible, I could probably still make it work. I'd bore out the stripped threads and make a pair of cast iron bushings that are a light press fit in the pump housing and have a suitable (1/2"?) pipe thread in their bore. These bushings would have a lip at the top to allow for a nice fillet of weld after they are pressed into place. Welding cast iron isn't easy, I would have the welding done by a specialist. I scratched up a little Paint drawing of my idea... What do you guys think?
Regards,
Jon
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SasquatchSanta
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I should have stated in my last post that the pump head is aluminum ... not cast iron. This "akuminum factor" could make things easier.
The stripped threads appear to be metric. They are not standard imperial or NPT.
I'm making a trip back to the shop tomorrow. Will try to get measurements.
Earlier today we discussed the possibility of butt welding an aluminum nipple on the end of the pump housing.
The trick will be to keep the heat down so as not to warp the pump head.
The stripped threads appear to be metric. They are not standard imperial or NPT.
I'm making a trip back to the shop tomorrow. Will try to get measurements.
Earlier today we discussed the possibility of butt welding an aluminum nipple on the end of the pump housing.
The trick will be to keep the heat down so as not to warp the pump head.
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On the next one, perhaps the PVC can be burnt out so as not to ruin the threads....or some solvent that will soften it..
Or simply keep the PVC fitting for a test of the pump, at least...
Or simply keep the PVC fitting for a test of the pump, at least...
Flatlander
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McDonald's told me that the pumps were fitted with the pvc to be used in the oilfield as fuel transfer pumps...so a high pressure fitting wasn't needed because there would be no pressure generated. He also said the threads were non-standard and he couldn't find any adapters to fit. He thought that was because the aviation industry in the 40's didn't follow any standards...they just made what they needed!
He does have pumps that haven't been converted, and still have intact threads. However, I would think that having a good welding shop tig weld in some adapters might be the best way to go. Not sure of the cost of that, but it shouldn't be too bad.
Really, the thing I'm thinking the most about is how long these motors will last. Would they be rebuildable?
He does have pumps that haven't been converted, and still have intact threads. However, I would think that having a good welding shop tig weld in some adapters might be the best way to go. Not sure of the cost of that, but it shouldn't be too bad.
Really, the thing I'm thinking the most about is how long these motors will last. Would they be rebuildable?