Everything new, still wouldn't start on it's own - SOLVED!

[Jeepsinker]

HA!..I jus' ada thunk!..(Same as a thought 'cept more intense...)
IF those two parts fall off, or the clip drops off,
Guess What??
The hydraulic head has a SHORTER STROKE!!
Result?
The engine will never start without 'squirty' stuff...GT80 is what I use...'softer non violent banging/ pre ignition detonation like ether.'.
Then it does and runs fine.
I bet ya YOUR clip has dropped off.
That is what has happened to my M45 fire truck.

This^^. Or you could have a worn drive cam or tappet in the pump center section causing a reduced length of plunger stroke. The button or top of tappet could also be worn but that's exceedingly rare.

 

[Floridianson]

Todays spit ball. After you do get it started on a light spray how do the injectors sound. Does it blow lot of black smoke when you blip the throttle? Also just wondering if your injectors are the two hole. Would seem if you have the two hole and they are atomizing ok then you could rule out them and just move to a new Head. I remember you saying you do not know what crazy stuff he was running for fuel that might have done to the injector tips.

 

[frank8003]

Did you pull the HH head yet. Button and clip secured?
Put a real fuel system filter on Her and a new HH and drive on.

 

[Av3fire]

Did you pull the HH head yet. Button and clip secured?
Put a real fuel system filter on Her and a new HH and drive on.

Just got the new HH this past week.... pulling it now to replace.... it has a new fuel filter system

 

[Av3fire]

Todays spit ball. After you do get it started on a light spray how do the injectors sound. Does it blow lot of black smoke when you blip the throttle? Also just wondering if your injectors are the two hole. Would seem if you have the two hole and they are atomizing ok then you could rule out them and just move to a new Head. I remember you saying you do not know what crazy stuff he was running for fuel that might have done to the injector tips.

they sounds fine, smooth..... no black smoke when bipping throttle..... Got everything apart to pull the head, just need to figure out how to put it in time so the marks line up so it can be removed

 

[Floridianson]

I just deleted you phone number so I sent a pm.

 

[Av3fire]

It's ALIVE!!!!!
was the HH... fired right up

 

[frank8003]

It's ALIVE!!!!!
was the HH... fired right up

Was the "button" on the takeout?
Now You get to change the oil, It is only 5 gallons.

 

[Av3fire]

Was the "button" on the takeout?
Now You get to change the oil, It is only 5 gallons.

the button and clip were in the bottom..... used a magnet to pull them out
Have a 5 gallon bucket here waiting to do the oil..... will be ordering the spin on filter kit

 

[Mullaney]

the button and clip were in the bottom..... used a magnet to pull them out
Have a 5 gallon bucket here waiting to do the oil..... will be ordering the spin on filter kit

.
Nice! Really nice.
Glad to hear that your repair went smoothly!

It really is amazing how much more exciting it is when the truck runs like it should.

 

[Elk1111]

It’s also really amazing that so much depends on a tiny little button and clip....

 

[Jeepsinker]

the button and clip were in the bottom..... used a magnet to pull them out
Have a 5 gallon bucket here waiting to do the oil..... will be ordering the spin on filter kit

That was the problem. It didn't need a new head.
If you had just reinstalled the button it would've been fine.

 

[davidb56]

the button and clip were in the bottom..... used a magnet to pull them out
Have a 5 gallon bucket here waiting to do the oil..... will be ordering the spin on filter kit

I just installed the kit from Tennis. works excellent.

 

[Floridianson]

That was the problem. It didn't need a new head.
If you had just reinstalled the button it would've been fine.

You would think but in the first post he said it was running fine just hard starting. Seems like most cases when button falls off then there is a no run problem. Wonder here the button / clip fell of when he removed the head. Since the button / plunger has some pressure on it from the tappet / cam could the button have stayed in place because the clip held it from going side to side. Just spit balling. We talked about it in a thread about the plunger sticking. If this happens and the gap between everything is there then the tappet and plunger come together with force could that knock off the clip and button. Then we have a no start problem. Good thing it is up and running with a new head and with new injectors it should be running tip top.

 

[Jeepsinker]

You would think but in the first post he said it was running fine just hard starting. Seems like most cases when button falls off then there is a no run problem. Wonder here the button / clip fell of when he removed the head. Since the button / plunger has some pressure on it from the tappet / cam could the button have stayed in place because the clip held it from going side to side. Just spit balling. We talked about it in a thread about the plunger sticking. If this happens and the gap between everything is there then the tappet and plunger come together with force could that knock off the clip and button. Then we have a no start problem. Good thing it is up and running with a new head and with new injectors it should be running tip top.

Nah James, you might be surprised to know I've had quite a few trucks where I've found the button and clip fallen off when I'm just doing hydraulic head o-rings on an otherwise good running truck. I'm inclined to think this is a compound issue of failed button retainers and tolerance stacking from worn components. I've also had a couple that started and ran fine, but lacked power. Pulled the heads to replace them, fiund the button off, reinstalled the button and put it back together and had good power.

I think the more years tick by, the more weird problems we are going to see with these pumps.

I guess my point is, he should hold onto the old head, it's probably still good.

 

[Floridianson]

Well just glad he is up and running again. AMBAC serviced / rebuilt the heads I was selling wonder if they still will. The Deuces are cool trucks but give me the 809 series or the only truck I love and have now the 915A2.

 

[gringeltaube]

I guess my point is, he should hold onto the old head, it's probably still good.

My thought, as well.

 

[Floridianson]

Well we will never know where the button is when the head is installed. I do not believe that little flimsy retainer clip can take all the pressure of the plunger spring and spring set up below it and not have an advantage of the design of the timing button and tappet assembly below. The button is concaved on the plunger side and matches the convex of the plunger. The tappet is small area and flat. That with the pressure of the plunger spring and tappet holding everything tight together is what I believe.
Just to add sorry yea the clip can break but still believe the button can stay there till something else happens. I do not know what but sooner or later the button does slip out and then you have the problem of the button coming off.

 

[JasonS]

Difficult hot start is a symptom of worn plunger.

 

[Floridianson]

I will have to say that yes plungers and there bores can wear. After talking to the OP he said the other owner had run all kinds of crap through the system for fuel. Now it has been talked about the unfiltered WMO can be real bad for the tolerances of plunger and bore. Just not adding something for lubricity will kill the bore and plunger. Even worse if solvents are being added to the mix. This is why I am just trying to think outside of the box on why some trucks have problems with the buttons. Here again just thinking that even if the clip fails the button might be able to stay in place for a while after the clip tap breaks. The threads that I have seen most say truck was running when put away but when they went to start it no go. Check button and it was off. The thing is there is no way to prove what when and how this is happening. All we say is clip broke but did the button really fall off right after the clip broke. If the button could stay in place because of the design for awhile then is it coming off the plunger completely right after shut down or right on start up. Wish I could find the thread where the OP posted a pic of his button. It looked like it had been hammered from hitting the plunger and tappet before it fell off completely.
There were even threads about removing the top head cap and with a wood dowel tap the plunger to see if it was stuck in the bore. Now if a plunger could stick in the bore and the clip was broke then the button would fall completely off right. Sorry but just do not believe a truck that is a otherwise good running truck that the button has already fallen off. Wonder how many trucks were running down the road and the button fell off and left them on the side of the road. As said most seem to be I went to start the truck and no go.