Finding the "good" wheel cylinder kits...

[rustystud]

The springs with the formed ends will work quite well. The metal end caps may be just a memory.

I'm afraid your correct about the caps being "just a memory" . I haven't seen any in years now. The last ones I actually put my eyes on where at a "swap meet" in Monroe, WA.

 

[rustystud]

I received the Napa UP 4419 wheel cylinders today and immediately tore one down. Happy to report that they still have the good springs.

View attachment 871832

Well everyone who needs some should stock up now ! I have enough sets to replace all mine twice. Stored away in sealed buckets.

 

[kenn]

Well everyone who needs some should stock up now ! I have enough sets to replace all mine twice. Stored away in sealed buckets.

I have three sitting in a box on my bench. Maybe I should have gotten a full set.

 

[Gypsyman]

While we're on the subject of collecting spare brake parts, what is everyone doing for brake shoes now days? Surplus, import, or relined?

 

[HDN]

I thought re-lining was always the way to go. Are the stock brake shoes still manufactured?

 

[Gypsyman]

I don't know. I just started digging into the numbers this morning.

 

[rustystud]

I thought re-lining was always the way to go. Are the stock brake shoes still manufactured?

I haven't seen stock brake shoes for years now. I take mine to the reline shop in downtown Seattle. They can put on any type of lining you want. From extremely hard "G" to butter soft "A" linings.
I bought my own relining riveter a few years ago. Just need the special "Die" to fit the rivets.

 

[Gypsyman]

I haven't seen stock brake shoes for years now. I take mine to the reline shop in downtown Seattle. They can put on any type of lining you want. From extremely hard "G" to butter soft "A" linings.
I bought my own relining riveter a few years ago. Just need the special "Die" to fit the rivets.

I saw an older post of your regarding the linings but I can't find it now. Are you having yours relined with the original "G" grade or the next step down to preserve drum life?

I may just start collecting dead shoes to have relined and keep on the shelf.

 

[WillWagner]

Out this way, there is a place that sleeves master cylinders, Karps. They can bore and sleeve master cylinders, wheel cylinders and assemble with new pieces parts that they manufacture. I know there is a place back east that does the same thing and they too make their own parts, White House, White Owl, White something. It might be that they can make the parts if they don't have them. There is also another place in Ma. that makes parts for old stuff. We use them mostly for fuel pump rebuild parts. Then and Now Automotive.

 

[kenn]

Here's a question that is related to the wheel cylinders. I have at least two that are leaking on the driver intermediate and passenger rear. I fully understand how the brake cylinders work. Assuming a given truck has a remote reservoir and the brake fluid level can be seen and is not going down fast enough to be noticeably lower over multiple drives, how could a leaking wheel cylinder cause a sudden complete loss of braking? I keep seeing and reading how leaking cylinders can cause a total failure but barring a loss of enough brake fluid to lack sufficient pressure, I don't understand how this could be. Yes, it may be leaking a good bit but there is a metal piston that is only going to allow so much fluid to shoot past it under pressure unless it is cracked or has developed a hole through it. Obviously at that point, it would be clear from the remote reservoir going down very quickly as well as a LOT of brake fluid in/around the wheel/tire that it is now beyond leaking and blown through somehow. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but a slowly leaking wheel cylinder definitely needs to be addressed but, again barring a leak fast enough to empty the reservoir, is an annoyance rather than a catastrophe that is about to strike any second.

Note, I'm not advocating driving a truck that is dangerous, but I do need to test drive my front wheel work and I'd rather not tear apart the rear in order to do so. I'm concerned about the wheel cylinders but on the way back after purchasing it, the vehicle had no issue with stopping, squishy pedal, major fluid showing on the wheels, etc.

 

[WillWagner]

Pressure baby. If the leaking cylinder(s) decide to completely fail, all of the pressure created in the system will escape via the leak(s). That is why dual chamber/split system MC's were invented. If there were a failure in either the front or rear, you will have a chance to stop/have some sort of stopping power. Do all of us a favor and do not put your truck on the road until the brakes are inspected and brought up to operating condition.

 

[kenn]

Pressure baby. If the leaking cylinder(s) decide to completely fail, all of the pressure created in the system will escape via the leak(s). That is why dual chamber/split system MC's were invented. If there were a failure in either the front or rear, you will have a chance to stop/have some sort of stopping power. Do all of us a favor and do not put your truck on the road until the brakes are inspected and brought up to operating condition.

I get that totally. My question is what does a complete failure of a wheel cylinder look like? I assume that the rubber seal would have to be torn or worn badly and then something would have to crack the cup as that outside diameter of the cup and the inside diameter of the cylinder is pretty tight. How does it go from a mild leak to sudden loss of pressure? Am I misunderstanding the tolerances between the cup and cylinder?

 

[WillWagner]

It depends on what is failed. Big 'ol pits from water usually leak as the cups go by. Split cups, especially the chicom ones, will cause the fluid to come pouring out as soon as the pedal is depressed.

 

[rustystud]

It depends on what is failed. Big 'ol pits from water usually leak as the cups go by. Split cups, especially the chicom ones, will cause the fluid to come pouring out as soon as the pedal is depressed.

What he said !

 

[rustystud]

Out this way, there is a place that sleeves master cylinders, Karps. They can bore and sleeve master cylinders, wheel cylinders and assemble with new pieces parts that they manufacture. I know there is a place back east that does the same thing and they too make their own parts, White House, White Owl, White something. It might be that they can make the parts if they don't have them. There is also another place in Ma. that makes parts for old stuff. We use them mostly for fuel pump rebuild parts. Then and Now Automotive.

I cannot remember the name, but years ago when I was in a "airpack booster" rebuild phase I found a company that could resleeve a bore with stainless steel sleeves. I should look and see if I saved the name somewhere. I did post about it, but finding old posts anymore is almost impossible (for me anyway).

 

[rustystud]

I saw an older post of your regarding the linings but I can't find it now. Are you having yours relined with the original "G" grade or the next step down to preserve drum life?

I may just start collecting dead shoes to have relined and keep on the shelf.

That is the "million dollar" question. Go with a soft lining and save drums, (but eat linings faster) or go with a harder lining and save on relining sooner but eating up drums faster. I tend to go with softer linings since drums cost more than brake shoes do.
There is also the newer linings made with "synthetic" materials that "supposedly" hold up really well to wear and still provide great braking. They cost about 40% more then the average lining but if they really work it would be worth it. I just don't like "experimenting" with brakes.

 

[silverstate55]

I cannot remember the name, but years ago when I was in a "airpack booster" rebuild phase I found a company that could resleeve a bore with stainless steel sleeves. I should look and see if I saved the name somewhere. I did post about it, but finding old posts anymore is almost impossible (for me anyway).

Greg, this is what you provided me with about 5 years ago (has it been that long already?!?) when we were talking about having the long-style AirPaks rebuilt:

”The person you want to talk with is "Tim Henderson" at Precision Engineering Rebuilders. The phone number is 1-800-325-2690 . It might take awhile to get to him. I once called for a week straight to be able to talk with him, he is that busy. Try and call early in the morning. Their on the east cost so that is 3 hours difference for me. Tell him you belong to Steel Soldiers. I told him all about us. He might give you a break on price.
Hope this helps.”

 

[WillWagner]

I cannot remember the name, but years ago when I was in a "airpack booster" rebuild phase I found a company that could resleeve a bore with stainless steel sleeves. I should look and see if I saved the name somewhere. I did post about it, but finding old posts anymore is almost impossible (for me anyway).

That's what Karps and the one back east do. I do know the place back east is kinda slow, but their work is good. Last time they were used it took 6 weeks or so to get parts back.

 

[Mullaney]

I get that totally. My question is what does a complete failure of a wheel cylinder look like? I assume that the rubber seal would have to be torn or worn badly and then something would have to crack the cup as that outside diameter of the cup and the inside diameter of the cylinder is pretty tight. How does it go from a mild leak to sudden loss of pressure? Am I misunderstanding the tolerances between the cup and cylinder?

.
@kenn ,

One way a total failure happens is when one of the flex hoses fail. Peddle goes to the floor. Second stab at the peddle pumps more fluid. Your heart is POUNDING and there simply is nothing you can do fast enough to recover in a lot of cases...

My particular failure was in a 5-Ton. Sitting at a railroad track waiting for the train to pass. Truck was running, manual transmission was in neutral. Peddle went to the floor as described. Truck started rolling slowly backward. In 8 or 10 feet, I stabbed the brake peddle several times, and went switched to the clutch. By the time I stabbed the clutch to the floor, the 5-Ton bumped into a 1-Ton Chevy sitting behind me. I turned the truck off, put it in gear and walked back to see how bad it was.

Only thing damaged was the grill. He backed away after the other cars went around. Maybe half the grill was ripped out on the Pintle. This guy was great! Was perfectly willing to allow me (us) to replace the grill a few days later.

After action report was that the brand new foreign manufactured hoses had a manufacturing defect. The crimp connector would blow off the hose with alarming frequency upon testing.

So, the moral of the story: Cheaper isn't always better.

 

[kenn]

.
@kenn ,

One way a total failure happens is when one of the flex hoses fail. Peddle goes to the floor. Second stab at the peddle pumps more fluid. Your heart is POUNDING and there simply is nothing you can do fast enough to recover in a lot of cases...

My particular failure was in a 5-Ton. Sitting at a railroad track waiting for the train to pass. Truck was running, manual transmission was in neutral. Peddle went to the floor as described. Truck started rolling slowly backward. In 8 or 10 feet, I stabbed the brake peddle several times, and went switched to the clutch. By the time I stabbed the clutch to the floor, the 5-Ton bumped into a 1-Ton Chevy sitting behind me. I turned the truck off, put it in gear and walked back to see how bad it was.

Only thing damaged was the grill. He backed away after the other cars went around. Maybe half the grill was ripped out on the Pintle. This guy was great! Was perfectly willing to allow me (us) to replace the grill a few days later.

After action report was that the brand new foreign manufactured hoses had a manufacturing defect. The crimp connector would blow off the hose with alarming frequency upon testing.

So, the moral of the story: Cheaper isn't always better.

Glad you got out of that one without any injuries! Replacing all of the brake lines is something I'll get to very soon as age seems to do a number on hoses. I'm very concerned about the single circuit so new brake lines, replace any leaking wheel cylinders, check/rebuild air pack and master, and a remote reservoir so it is more obvious if I'm leaking somehwere are all on deck.

If you took a mechanical survey of how many deuces on the road have at least one slow leak in a wheel cylinder I'd bet the percentage would be pretty high and many of those drivers don't know as the rubber caps are doing their job well enough to contain the leak... As far as full on sudden, catastrophic brake failure, I wonder what the number one reason was? Pressure, obviously, but a hose or fitting most likely?