FLU419 SEE HMMH HME Owners group

[Couchoffroad]

Sorry that my first post on here is not on good technical discussions for which we have a wealth of info to give, but rather on having to give a response to the ranting of Eric (Big Bison). So for everyone that put forth the time and effort to read his rants and make assumptions, I hope you consider the whole story. BTW feel free to call me at 888-X-UNIMOG as I am not much of a typer and I am more than happy to share our expertise on Unimog and 419 series.

To start, as you can probably tell Erics complaints about me and Couch Off-Road are blown out of proportion on what seems like drunk ranting...Yes we have been waiting for titles on Erics HMMH and our own HMMH for months now due to paperwork errors (not Erics fault) with government issued vehicles. I did tell him that we could get him a colorado title for it, but did not say it was already in hand. If it was in hand, it would have been delivered with the truck.
The complaints on “charging the batteries” and what not... you will see on the invoice and in the following emails between Eric and Couch Off-Road that these were at no charge to him and the amounts were listed on the invoice and then discounted off. So he did not pay for anything extra or absurd charges... It appears he forgot to mention that he actually did not pay for that!! N[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]oted [/FONT]in our emails we said “The other items listed that you are arguing about are just for your knowledge and at no charge to you. So yes we did some repairs and test drove before delivery at no charge to you. I'd be surprised to hear if most customers would be upset at that”.
Eric sent us the SEE because he thought the head gasket needed to be replaced due to an over injecting ether system. After we reviewed the truck at Couch Off-Road, we informed him the head gasket was fine and did not need replacing, saving him $2,000 in parts and labor. It was his batteries were dead and at prolonged idle the trucks all put out gray smoke. There were some small repairs done to his vehicle like parking brake repair, and trying to bend the hood back into shape to fit the machine (unsuccessfully - which came to us bent and not fitting). Eric wanted the hydronic unit installed (like we had done on his HMMH), which yes..should have been installed by now and is my mistake for not having that done by now.
One reason I halted working on the SEE is Eric has been pushing to install a $14,000 snow blower on it that won't work because of the ridiculous volume and pressure needed to run the blower he insists on getting.
*****TECHNICAL INFO***** 419 SEE has 26-30 gpm at around 2,300 psi with an overdriven PTO at around 18% overdriven. The system Eric insists on requires 46 gpm at 3,900 psi. This would be driven on a direct 1:1 drive. Since the pump is so large it would have to be driven off the belly mount PTO which would require at least a couple thousand dollars of mercedes OEM PTO drive parts and housing. With that being said the SEE tractor 1[SUP]st[/SUP] gear would not be low enough to be at the right engine rpm to deliver the power and rpm needed. Realistically putting this system together could have cost between $25K and $37K to engineer and employ with a better than 60% chance of failure. If I am as bad of a guy as Eric says or a “mog thief” as so claimed, we could have done what he asked for and let him waste his money to have something that wont work.

The SEE could have been picked up whenever he wanted after the repairs are paid, which was only $580. The proper address is on all the invoices he has received from us. He calls me up rant claiming we have an invalid business address, we are delinquent on our taxes, and that my business is for sale.... All of which are bizarre and untrue... this is when I asked if he was drunk and yes hung up on him.
There are a hand full of inaccurate and embellished comments but this is a cool technical forum not a lame as soap opera. Apologies for the delays and miscommunication to Eric but slander is definitely a punishable offense according to our lawyers. For any further insite into this unfortunate happening keep reading the actual email communication below.
Please feel free to call our parts and service department at 888-X-UNIMOG for free advise on any questions you may have for your 419 Series or Unimog.
I know this is not the place for ranting and name calling and will not continue this thread to be as such. Thank you to those you have spoke your mind to keep this forum/thread what it is suppose to be, a place to ask questions and receive smart answers and good technical knowledge for all.

Thank you for your time and have a wonderful holiday!
EMAIL COMMUNICATION 12/14/2016
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Couch to Eric: [/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Hi Eric,

[/FONT]
I have attached the outstanding invoices for the SEE and HMMH.

It sounds like a truck was here to pick up the SEE but we do not have a
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]loading dock and it was an enclosed trailer that the SEE would notfit into. [/FONT]
The truck will be available to be released to you once the invoices are
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]paid. [/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Wire transfer preferable or a certified check. Payment info is on thebottom of the invoices. total amount due is $X,XXX.[/FONT]
The title paperwork was overnighted to us yesterday so I am waiting to
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]receive it. [/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Call us if you have any questions. [/FONT]
Thanks,
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Cindy
[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]couchoffroad.com[/FONT]
888-X-Unimog ext 500
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]--------------------------------------------[/FONT]
Eric to Couch:
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If you call me, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](XXX-XXX-XXXX)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], I'm happy to pay the bill on the SEE via CC so I can have my SEE backand we can go our separate ways.[/FONT]
I'm not going to pay the bill on the HMMH. You can't charge me post-sale for work done to a truck pre-sale, like batteries, especially given how the HMMH doesn't have new batteries to begin with. How is it I owe anything, when I paid the balance due for the hydronic unit before taking delivery, to square my account? Now you're billing me for non-elective work done pre-sale, when I don't even have title? I'm not liable for those repairs, even if it was my truck, because the agreement was it'd be in working order, not that I was buying bad batteries I needed to pay to replace. I'm happy to return your HMMH for a refund on the purchase price, because it's still your truck, I don't have title to it.
Even if I did have title, I can't believe you're charging me for new batteries, we discussed how I wasn't interested in new batteries, and one of 'em is dead now anyway because those are not new batteries, so what's up with billing me for new batteries with manufacturing dates from 2010/2011? I held up my end of the HMMH deal months ago, all I lack is a title. If that isn't forthcoming, but you guys have no problem billing me for pre-sale work on the HMMH, then yeah, if y'all don't want to come and get it, I'm happy to take the loss on shipping to return it, which *should* be at your expense because it's still your truck, but I really want to cut ties ASAP, this isn't square dealing.
-Eric
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]---------------------------------------[/FONT]
Eric to Couch:
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Doesn't surprise me there was a misunderstanding about what all was included in the purchase price. If I get the title I was promised, I'm happy to pay for the hydronic unit, but only if it's my truck. The batteries, otoh, are an infuriating charge because that work was *NOT* done, probably because I never agreed to it. TITLE. I just need title to the HMMH or a refund. Just to cut ties, I'll pay for the hydronic unit, but not without the title.[/FONT]
-Eric
---------------------------
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Couch to Eric:[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Hi Eric [/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]If you can show me receipt or proof of payment for the heater than thats great and i apologize for the double invoice. I have no record ofreceipt from you other than the $35,000 for the truck and the $576 transport. Since we were picking up the SEE from you i think we werenot as adamant to have everything paid for before delivery. But like i said if you do have records of this being paid please let me know. [/FONT]
If you look at the invoice, You were not charged for batteries, it was a half hour for charging them (my mistake on the mispell) which was
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]removed in the discount of $1,113.75. That discount was also for the hours of repairing the throttle and jay took 6.25 hours off the heater installation because jay thought it took too long. So the total discount was for throttle linkage at 1.5 hours, .5 hours to charge batteries, and 6.25 additional hours of heater install removed. Total 8.25 hours at 135/hr is the discount of $1,113.75. [/FONT]
The title is coming. There were issues and delays with governnment sending it out. It is overnighted to us yesterday and should be
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]received today. I will need your physical address to send it to you or we can possibly send it with the driver when your SEE will bedelivered. Just so you know (not that it helps) but we are still waiting on two titles of our own from june as well from them. [/FONT]
Please review and send me any proof of payments you may have other than the $35,000 and $576. If i do have errors i apologize.
Thanks
------------------
Eric to Couch:
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I'd say I'm happy to pay the bill on the SEE, except by now I was hoping it'd be tens of thousands, so not that happy. Happy to pay the HMMH bill upon receipt of title. But also, not that happy.[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]----------------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Couch to Eric:[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Hi Eric,[/FONT]

I just want to be clear that you were never invoiced for batteries. I am not sure where you see that you were charged for them. If you were
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]charged for batteries, it would be a lot more than $67.50, which was for service on charging the batteries already in the unit (which wasalso part of the discount and explained in my last email). [/FONT]

I know your upset about the title taking too long, and we are working hard on getting this to you as soon as possible.

Thank you,
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]----------------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Eric to Couch:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"I have no record of receipt from you other than the $35,000 for thetruck and the $576 transport."[/FONT]

If, back when I asked how we could square up on the HMMH, I was only presented a bill for transport, then it only reaffirmed my as-discussed expectation that the other work was included in the purchase cost. News to me, this many months later, that the $576 didn't square us.
"That discount was also for the hours of repairing the throttle and jay took 6.25 hours off the heater installation because jay thought it took too long."
The purchase price was for a running HMMH, not one needing throttle work that I haven't heard about before today, but can't fathom how I'm liable to pay for a pre-sales issue, including test-drive? Seems like the sort of thing the seller needs to do *before* putting a vehicle up for sale, vs. a surprise charge 9 months later. Makes sense to me now why the HMMH doesn't run right... next thing we were going to check on this end was the throttle. I don't know from where I sit, whether this work was even done because there's no trust anymore, but if so it wasn't done competently or with any transparency to the customer that I was expected to pay for it, let alone that it needed doing? Don't tell me about how it's a "discounted" bogus charge, please.
A used vehicle dealer billing the customer, let alone nine months later, for having to charge bad batteries, fix a throttle, etc. is deplorable especially when I haven't heard about any throttle problems before today, just beginning to suspect that failure trying to make *your* truck run right. I don't want to argue -- if that's somehow an outrageous statement on my part, then start an Internet poll and see what everyone else thinks about this sort of charge from a used vehicle dealer? Again, tens of thousands of dollars I tried paying Couch Offroad, months later the response is none of that work
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]done, plus bogus & spiteful nickel-and-dime charges?[/FONT]
Not happy. I'll pay for the bogus charges upon receipt of title, but only to expedite ending this abortive business relationship as painlessly as possible. But they're still bogus charges.
Yes, I can wire the money, anything to have title to the HMMH and possession of the SEE and never deal with CORE again, would perfectly describe my current priority in life. Sorry to find you in the middle of this, as much as I got a real kick out of catching up w/ you the other month.


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]-Eric[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Couch to Eric:[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]I get it, but you are arguing points/details that are already at no charge to you....you are not paying for. All you are paying for is the heater and the install which is what you wanted. The other items listed that you are arguing about are just for your knowledge and at no charge to you. So yes we did some repairs and test drove before delivery at no charge to you. I'd be surprised to hear if most customers would be upset at that. [/FONT]
I know your angry and want this to be done. So thank you for your patience thus far. Sounds like Steamboat is getting some good snow,
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Hope its a good season for you up there!. [/FONT]
Thanks,
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]Cindy[/FONT]

 

[911joeblow]

Guys I need fittings for my new hydraulic tool to go to the hose real. I am having a hard time locating the EATON FD4 to match the hose real. What have you guys found used?

 

[peakbagger]

Are you looking for the fittings that connect up to the flat face couplings on the end of the hose reel?. I bought a set of them from this company http://atlanticutilityservice.com/ They were listed on Ebay.

 

[The FLU farm]

911, I never even thought about buying such things used, but tomorrow I can let you know what the numbers are on the ones I bought somewhat recently. Might even find the receipt for them.
I got the model numbers off a tool (not all that easy to read), looked at various sites to ensure that the measurements matched, then Googled my way to a place that had them at a reasonable price - probably found them on eBay, like peakbagger.
An extra incentive for me to dig that info up is that I bought myself a Christmas gift yesterday, a used 1-inch impact. The couplers looked grungy in the photos, so I probably need a set.

Why a 1-inch impact, you ask? Well, when General Hood finally does buy a parts SEE it'll be a bottom of the barrel unit, and being from Texarkana, also rusty. So when I get there to pirate...um, buy parts off of it, it might take upwards of 2,500 lb.-ft. to loosen things up.
Besides, by running that used tool off of his SEE it'll flush all the 10W and impurities into his hydraulic system instead of mine.

And last but not least, Merry Christmas everybody!

 

[The FLU farm]

Found the "receipt". What I bought was an FF-372-8F0 and an FF-371-8F0, from a place called MRO Stop.

 

[FOD]

it might take upwards of 2,500 lb.-ft. to loosen things up.

And last but not least, Merry Christmas everybody!

That's what they invented torches for , Took me over an hour with torch and torque to get a single tire off me SEE.

 

[The FLU farm]

That's what they invented torches for , Took me over an hour with torch and torque to get a single tire off me SEE.

A torch might work here in the USA, but not in England. There one would have to try 50/50 acetone and ATF (a penetrant which 10 years later I still haven't tried after reading about how it handily beat all the commercially available alternatives) or a nut splitter. The latter I have used, successfully.
Oh, in case you wonder why using a torch wouldn't work in England, it's because there it means flashlight.

 

[911joeblow]

How concerned are you all about completely draining the hydraulics during a fluid change?

 

[peakbagger]

I expect this will be a sensitive issue with one member, but while surfing Amazon a show called "This is Breslau" popped up. No SEEs but its focused on a built Unimog competing in a hard core European offroad rally. The reason for the sensitivity is its about Jay Couch and his team. The sponsor obviously wrote a big check to get the video done and I expect the editors had a challenge as there definitely is controversy.

They really set up his co-driver up as a stooge but I expect there is more to the story than portrayed. Nevertheless worth the 45 minutes to see Mogs and other offroad beasts in their elements.

 

[burquedoka]

I expect this will be a sensitive issue with one member, but while surfing Amazon a show called "This is Breslau" popped up. No SEEs but its focused on a built Unimog competing in a hard core European offroad rally. The reason for the sensitivity is its about Jay Couch and his team. The sponsor obviously wrote a big check to get the video done and I expect the editors had a challenge as there definitely is controversy.

They really set up his co-driver up as a stooge but I expect there is more to the story than portrayed. Nevertheless worth the 45 minutes to see Mogs and other offroad beasts in their elements.

The directors cut of "This Is Breslau" is much better edited and 30 mins longer than the original release. Both should be up on Amazon.

 

[The FLU farm]

How concerned are you all about completely draining the hydraulics during a fluid change?

I drain the tanks, disassemble the cylinders, valves, and pump, then clean the parts with denatured alcohol. The hoses are sent to a place that cleanses them chemically.
Then I reassemble the components in a dust free room, much like what large computer systems are in.

Okay, not really. But I do contract all the cylinders to get as much of the old fluid out as possible. And make sure that the filters are happy.

Along the same lines, today I rigged up a very temporary (yeah right, it'll likely still be there in the spring) electrical setup so the chute on the snow blower can be rotated and the lid moved.
It's supposed to snow again tomorrow, but I crave more. Much more.
So far all we've had is wet snow, very wet, and not a lot. Still, even at 1,200 to 1,600 rpm this 'blower is working fine. If someone wants to try running a low pressure Bobcat 'blower off the rear hydraulics I'd say go for it.

 

[tatra813]

I'm looking to buy one of the flu419 rigs in Washington or oregon. I looks like Idaho motor pool has a few in stock, that appear to me in new condition for $24500

What do you guys think of that price and is there any others in my area for sale?

what is the shipping weight?

 

[The FLU farm]

Tatra, they may look like new, but be prepared to fix a few things. Lack of use often leads to leaky cylinder seals, for example.
Also, 24,5K sounds high to me, even if it is 100%. Of course, it largely depends on what you want to use the SEE for. Personally I favor good mechanicals over sheetmetal, paint and such since I use my SEEs for work around the house.
Shipping weight is stated as 16,000 lbs., and should you end up buying a SEE, PM me and I'll give you the number of a guy who is affordable and used to hauling FLU419s.

 

[peakbagger]

Out of curiosity how do you get access to the what I assume is a state federal surplus property auction facility? Generally you need to be an authorized government entity to access the equipment. I have seen the HMMH listed on the Idaho surplus property site for quite awhile. There apparently are back doors, usually some small qualified entity picks one up for cheap out of depot, runs it a bit but mostly parks it for some minimum period required under the state surplus statutes and then resells the unit to the public. Many of the SEEs were reconditioned at government facilities and in theory have been torn apart, reassembled and various technical service bulletins have been implemented. They are definitely worth a bit more. The pricing you mention is on the high end of the market. Lots of folks are asking that price or more but its questionable if they get it. C&C Equipment seems to set the high end at 23K, if there is SEE dealer anywhere, he is it.

If you track the sold listings on Ebay, you can get an idea on what they actually sell for. I would guess the real pricing is in the 14 to 18k range. Many folks list them for higher prices but few sell and end up as completed (not sold). On occasion the same unit will get "sold" and then relisted sometimes multiple times. I guess someone made an impulse purchase and once they figure out that shipping may be 3 to 4 K they bail out. Others get listed with "no minimum" and when the prices don't seem to be moving up fast enough the listing gets pulled in the last few hours of the auction. I expect the problem is that most folks buy these rigs and really have no idea what they got and then realize that its more of handful then they want to deal with and try to resell them for more than the paid. I expect dealing face to face with cash in hand is the way to go as I expect if the seller needs the bucks the price can get quite low.If it matters to you, many are sold with a bill of sale and are not titled. In theory the auction firms are supposed to issue titles on units sold at the government auctions but there are problems with follow through by the auction firms where the title paper work reportedly lag by months if its ever get issued.

It looks like you have quite a few interesting "orphan vehicles" plus a 406 so you must be willing and able to work on them. Just plan on chasing air system issues due to debris that have collected in the piping and various pressure regulators and check valves from sitting. A large number of these SEEs ended up running through the Texarkana depot (or Texas in general) and for some strange reason, some variety of rodent really liked to nest behind the dash and gnaw the wiring harness. The damage is not visually obvious but its worth checking all the electrical accessories and dash functions. Its repairable but sucks up a lot of time and unless you get great deal and are willing to burn up 100 hours or so dealing with black wires (no color coding), you may want to walk.

 

[tatra813]

Ok thx
I'm debating getting one of these or spending about the same on a Deere 310 or case580

I'm curious how comparable they are in regards to dirt capabilities. Pros/cons
Any feedback

The Deere and case a ton more hours and will have their own set of issues

Thanks in advance

 

[The FLU farm]

I'm debating getting one of these or spending about the same on a Deere 310 or case580

If you get a SEE you get a Case 580C. It's a very capable backhoe, and I'd say that the main drawback is that you can't work the backhoe from the drivers seat.
Since I'm no expert at running a backhoe, it would comfort me if I could swing it and use the hoe as a counterweight when in precarious situations. Also, the rear suspension can work for and against you. In my case, it's against more often than not. That's why I'll make a suspension lockout next spring, letting me lock the rear suspension in a compressed mode.

And speaking of suspension, when I use the loader the suspension really messes me up. The front this time. That's partially because I'm used to the better visibility of my tractor, and its level indicator for the bucket. But even if getting the loader bucket's angle just right, once it starts filling up, the front suspension squats accordingly. Yeah, a lockout would be handy for the front, and if the rear setup works out I'll probably make one for the front, too.

Does this mean I'd want a regular backhoe instead of a SEE? Absolutely not!

Hopefully others, less biased and with more experience, will chime in and help you decide.

 

[The FLU farm]

Never would've thought a crane would be so handy, so often.This could've been done with the tractor, but not as easily or with the same precision.

 

[BigBison]

Hoping to use mine to swap bed for crane-service body & vice-versa on my pickups before too much longer. Hardly begins to cost-justify the darn things (apologies to all for my language proclivities, won't happen again I swear), but sometimes just not needing more than one helper (if that) makes ya smile about having it around. This sort of oddball job is where I'm hoping my old neighbors are happy with me being the new kid on the block, because golly, the HMMH sure comes in handy for things folks just don't think of until they've seen one parked on down the road.

It'll be years before I run out of uses for the HMMH, whereas a 4x4 backhoe is fairly run-of-the-mill hereabouts, and SEEs are easier to come by than HMMHs. I won't so much be subbing out Pebbles as using her to return favors in the neighborhood (my 2nd-closest neighbor where I live, is my 2nd-closest neighbor 2.5 miles away where I'm building), mostly to keep her from lazing around and getting more fat, less fun, and higher maintenance.

Recovered my SEE today. It's sitting out there dead on the County Road at the end of the driveway 'til morning, had to set up my warning triangles, also called both neighbors to warn 'em about a dead tractor. I'm in the market for 4 new batteries, more to follow, once I've caught up...

 

[General Hood]

Experimented with the front bucket of the SEE yesterday laying down some road base. I used the back of the bucket to drag the material and the results were suitable for what I needed.

On another note, announcing the birth of our first great grandchild today. Jeez, am I that old?

 

[The FLU farm]

Jeez, am I that old?

Yep. At least that old.