Aernan
Member
- 510
- 19
- 18
- Location
- San Jose/California
I remember someone mentioning you can mix in ATF, WVO, Gasoline etc. I heard there was a table or manual for safe mixing ratios. Where can I find that?
-
Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
Fuel mixing guide
- Thread starter Aernan
- Start date
- 1,813
- 1,518
- 113
- Location
- Orlando, FL
To run the engine on? I know the Deuce guys do that, in their multifuel engines, but I think the FMTV engines are all diesel-only.
Aernan
Member
- 510
- 19
- 18
- Location
- San Jose/California
From what little I know about this subject the multi fuel engines have a regulator that changes the amount (volume) of fuel used by fuel type (density) so the throttle position is identical. In addition they have vitol o-rings so the seals don't break down with strong solvents (ethanol, biodiesel etc). Besides this any diesel engine will run on biodiesel and would run on straight vegetable oil. The trouble is WVO and SVO thicken when cold and are impossible to pump.
- 1,813
- 1,518
- 113
- Location
- Orlando, FL
Yes, that is my understanding as well. A diesel cycle engine will run on just about anything, but I don't think our engines are designed to accommodate those other fuels.
- 12,195
- 325
- 0
- Location
- gainesville, ga.
Cat engines do NOT like to run on crap, They WILL go on strike.
- 1,813
- 1,518
- 113
- Location
- Orlando, FL
What is the advantage of doing that? ATF is a lot more expensive than diesel, so I'm assuming it's something good?
coachgeo
Well-known member
- 5,147
- 3,462
- 113
- Location
- North of Cincy OH
ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Biodeisel is ok only if prepared for gelling and you have bioD compatible seals. Problem is quality of biodiesel varies too much and can really fubar you. If you have a local source with gurantee of no water etc... fine. Other wise for these engines steer clear.
For WVO.. NOO NO NO and I am a long long WVO person. Now if you are cleaning (centrifuging) /de-watering the oil yourself and you have installed measures to clean the cylinders often (methoxide and or LP injection), have well maintained viscosity thinning system (usually heat) and replaced with proper injectors made to work with pure plant oil and changed your injection timing (if that is even possible with these CATS) to match the combustion characteristics of WVO/Pure Plant oil then go for it . Oh and as well triple shorten your maintenance intervals. If your not willing to do all that work....... then don't do it.
Always been myths of adding ATF or 2 stroke to diesel to lubricate the pumps better and some say it makes it burn hotter Eh. it does help with some lubrication on the older diesels that do not like ULSD. A fuel cooler is actually the better route especially on the small tanks the LMTVs have for better fuel mileage and hotter BTU of the diesel. There are several charts in the 5 ton section on additives for diesels. One shown below.
I do not notice any difference on ATF or any diesel additives in any of the trucks I have operated as far as better mpg or performance.
Attachments
scottmandu
Active member
- 822
- 36
- 28
- Location
- Texas
The cost savings burning non approved fuels will be insignificant when faced with repairing the fuel system.
coachgeo
Well-known member
- 5,147
- 3,462
- 113
- Location
- North of Cincy OH
One advantage of ATF is it has more detergents and can help clean things in the fuel system. It should in theory lube better but you won't see or feel that in any way shape or form unless you break an engine's combustion chambers/pistons and fuel injection system down for micro inspection that never got it mixed in.... then compared with a micro inspected engine that got the treatment with atf at regular intervals. Another words..... no body truly knows if it helps beyond theory.
Last edited:
Aernan
Member
- 510
- 19
- 18
- Location
- San Jose/California
So I had what I thought was a clever idea that turned out bad. I am planning to run a water/methanol injector system to keep the EGT down and possibly save some fuel.
I'm sizing the water tank for the living space and I was wondering how much water the engine might consume. If I supply the water I then need pure methenol.
There aren't any race shops locally supplying methanol and it's expensive to ship because of hazmat.
I then realized E85 is common. I was hoping to be able to use ethanol as a substitute but it turns out he remaining 15% is gasoline. I would be diluting the raw fuel to 50% concentration or lower so the gas would only be 7% or lower buy volume injected with the air during the compression stroke.
For my user I may go all water because I only need to control EGT.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I'm sizing the water tank for the living space and I was wondering how much water the engine might consume. If I supply the water I then need pure methenol.
There aren't any race shops locally supplying methanol and it's expensive to ship because of hazmat.
I then realized E85 is common. I was hoping to be able to use ethanol as a substitute but it turns out he remaining 15% is gasoline. I would be diluting the raw fuel to 50% concentration or lower so the gas would only be 7% or lower buy volume injected with the air during the compression stroke.
For my user I may go all water because I only need to control EGT.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
- 12,195
- 325
- 0
- Location
- gainesville, ga.
I would NOT use atf because it has friction enhancers to make the clutches grab better as one of its components, so that being said, I do NOT believe the IP or the INJECTORS need or will like friction enhancers AND if I am right, my wallet will NOT like friction enhancers ether. JUST NOT WORTH THE RISK.
Some of you have read this before, if so you can read it again,
The multifuel was designed in Germany late in WW2 because they had a major fuel supply issue, this was a Diesel engine that if needed it could run battlefield collected crap, the engine was a THROW AWAY if needed because of the use of the CRAP fuel, this was no big deal because the mission was the important thing not the engine, after WW2, the thought was that the NEXT war (WW3) would be fought in Europe, so with that thought in mind there could be a fuel issue like there was in WW2, so just about everybody used a updated German design for multifuel engines, even the RUSSIANS who still have/use then (1,000 hp + v12s), the engines were again throw aways, designed for the same reasons that the Germans designed them in the first place, and again all that matters is the mission.
Anything BUT DIESEL is crap, with who knows what is in it, anything from ACID to ZINK, the GIMP is the only one I know that has really clean wo fuel, it looks cleaner then even pump fuel, the only thing I question is the acid content.
Some of you guys swear by WO fuel, that is fine, it is your truck and money, I would like everybody to think about above and remember that to use crap as fuel REQUIRES a THROW AWAY engine.
Well that my .1 mill of input.
Some of you have read this before, if so you can read it again,
The multifuel was designed in Germany late in WW2 because they had a major fuel supply issue, this was a Diesel engine that if needed it could run battlefield collected crap, the engine was a THROW AWAY if needed because of the use of the CRAP fuel, this was no big deal because the mission was the important thing not the engine, after WW2, the thought was that the NEXT war (WW3) would be fought in Europe, so with that thought in mind there could be a fuel issue like there was in WW2, so just about everybody used a updated German design for multifuel engines, even the RUSSIANS who still have/use then (1,000 hp + v12s), the engines were again throw aways, designed for the same reasons that the Germans designed them in the first place, and again all that matters is the mission.
Anything BUT DIESEL is crap, with who knows what is in it, anything from ACID to ZINK, the GIMP is the only one I know that has really clean wo fuel, it looks cleaner then even pump fuel, the only thing I question is the acid content.
Some of you guys swear by WO fuel, that is fine, it is your truck and money, I would like everybody to think about above and remember that to use crap as fuel REQUIRES a THROW AWAY engine.
Well that my .1 mill of input.
Last edited:
coachgeo
Well-known member
- 5,147
- 3,462
- 113
- Location
- North of Cincy OH
VERY GOOD POINT. The idea of using atf started long long ago and the formulation was very different then.
spankybear
Well-known member
- 884
- 911
- 93
- Location
- WA
Um... no... ATF has always had friction modifiers... It's not to "enhance" friction but modify it... Case in point... The LMTV is spect with 15W40 engine oil... shifts like a mule kicking your butt... Use ATE and this smooths out the shifts... That is why ATF is ATF... ATE is a hydraulic oil with an additive package to help the clutches and shifting.
I would use an actual diesel additive... There are two I like are Stanadyne Performance Formula and Power Service Diesel Kleen Fuel Additive. The Stanadyne additive is made by/for Stanadyne who makes injector pumps. (CUCV and HMMWV) I think this is the best out there. Power Service is easy to find and every Walmart I have been to carries it.
Aernan
Member
- 510
- 19
- 18
- Location
- San Jose/California
Ok I found a great video on youtube that details it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCXRUXOPMHQ
The manual he is talking about can be found here.
http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll9/id/686
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCXRUXOPMHQ
The manual he is talking about can be found here.
http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll9/id/686
If you like to replace those expensive fuel filters by all means go for it. You will kill that CAT motor. Sorry. The multifuel engines also have a fuel density compensator. Just like the manual says I am sure it has with that quick publication he has. Most are bypassed. but still the tolerances on a LDT/LDS is different with its swirl indirect injection system.
Running WMO and other thicker fuels will just constant require more filter changes in any MF
Aernan
Member
- 510
- 19
- 18
- Location
- San Jose/California
I started the original post because I was hoping I could run E85 with 50% water as a replacement for methanol/water injection. This would be to reduce the EGT. I'm concerned about overall engine temp because I know the 3116 170 HP model is limited by total heat. The marine variants produce twice the power because they can be cooled with sea water.
The trouble with E85 (85% ethanol 15% gasoline) is that it contains gasoline instead of water as the other 15%. So I wanted to check the safe mix in ratio for gasoline.
In the diesel cycle during the compression cycle a tiny amount of fuel is injected that compresses and ignites then then TDC and the main fuel charge is injected. Fuels with shorter hydrocarbons heat, evaporate and combust easier. In diesel the ratio of short hydrocarbons is called the Cetane rating. In Europe the cetane rating of their fuel is higher and it causes the engines to be quieter. I run a cetane booster and fuel injection cleaner as a regular additive to reduce noise.
I have run biodiesel and was investigating WVO conversion of an older mercedes 300TD wagon I bought. I know for certain the only things required to run Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) or WVO or WMO is to heat it up to reduce it's viscosity and replace any rubber in your fuel system with vitol. Heating is typically done with waste engine heat and many kits area available to convert old mercedes and are frequently used on old school busses.
Since biodiesel is oil it's an excellent solvent and will remove any old buildup from pump diesel in your system and will clog the fuel filters and oil filter for the first 5k miles from everything I have read. After the initial crud clean out it should behave like pump diesel except it has a lower total fuel value (not as many calories in it because the hydrocarbons are shorter).
I personally have never run any other alternative fuel so I can't attest to how safe it is long term. From what I have read multi fuel engines only have 2 unique features.
1. External fuel cup based injection.
2. fuel density regulator (just uses higher volumes of fuel for lower grades of fuel).
I believe they may have additional fuel filtration. Ideally they would pre-heat thick fuels to reduce viscosity.
A quick google search turns up the big fuel filter for the 3116 is under $20 USD so that's very reasonable price for a consumable.
The trouble with E85 (85% ethanol 15% gasoline) is that it contains gasoline instead of water as the other 15%. So I wanted to check the safe mix in ratio for gasoline.
In the diesel cycle during the compression cycle a tiny amount of fuel is injected that compresses and ignites then then TDC and the main fuel charge is injected. Fuels with shorter hydrocarbons heat, evaporate and combust easier. In diesel the ratio of short hydrocarbons is called the Cetane rating. In Europe the cetane rating of their fuel is higher and it causes the engines to be quieter. I run a cetane booster and fuel injection cleaner as a regular additive to reduce noise.
I have run biodiesel and was investigating WVO conversion of an older mercedes 300TD wagon I bought. I know for certain the only things required to run Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) or WVO or WMO is to heat it up to reduce it's viscosity and replace any rubber in your fuel system with vitol. Heating is typically done with waste engine heat and many kits area available to convert old mercedes and are frequently used on old school busses.
Since biodiesel is oil it's an excellent solvent and will remove any old buildup from pump diesel in your system and will clog the fuel filters and oil filter for the first 5k miles from everything I have read. After the initial crud clean out it should behave like pump diesel except it has a lower total fuel value (not as many calories in it because the hydrocarbons are shorter).
I personally have never run any other alternative fuel so I can't attest to how safe it is long term. From what I have read multi fuel engines only have 2 unique features.
1. External fuel cup based injection.
2. fuel density regulator (just uses higher volumes of fuel for lower grades of fuel).
I believe they may have additional fuel filtration. Ideally they would pre-heat thick fuels to reduce viscosity.
A quick google search turns up the big fuel filter for the 3116 is under $20 USD so that's very reasonable price for a consumable.
- 629
- 24
- 18
- Location
- Port orchard, WA
The 3116 in an lmtv/fmtv is 225-290 hp not 170. At stock fueling there shouldn’t be any EGT issues. If you increase the rack travel for more fueling/hp minor increase should only need an EGT guage and reduce throttle when temps get high, or swap to bigger turbo to add air. Adding air will reduce EGT. The 3116 is known to build heat fast with fuel increase. On water/methonal injection you can set a relay to only use it when EGT get high. In fact you only really need the water if the goal is to decrease EGT. Or you can go the poor route and use winter blend windshield washer fluid. It has meth added as anti freeze. My internet recommendation is to go with a larger turbo, increase fueling and add an EGT guage. This will help with proper fuel air ratio, lower EGT, increase power and add a vital engine monitoring. Power wise asking more than 300hp out of a 3116 is going to ask for trouble. Unless your in a boat. That’s my 10 cents.
snowtrac nome
Well-known member
- 1,674
- 139
- 63
- Location
- western alaska
If you have the 170 hp engine don't turn it up ,you are all ready maxing the torque out on the 1544 Allison more hp equates to more torque ,plus at 170 hp you are about 10 hp away from what the internals in the light duty configuration can hold up to reliably. The fmtv engines have different cranks rids and pistons. to hold up to about 300 hp. something like properly sized compounds or a blaylock switchblade turbo could likely give you better seat of the pants feel with more low end boost with out over taxing your drivetrain with torque.