Fuel System Troubleshooting and final resolution (IT WAS THE SOCK)

[98G]

Appendages crossed!! Eagerly awaiting the "outcome"....ya know what they say, "One day at a time!".......hopefully your mech adventure has come to a successful conclusion.....

Remember when @TNDRIVER said it wasn't the lift pump? Yeah, he was right.

It acted normal for 2 miles, then exactly the same symptoms.

Back on the Strap for the Tow of Shame it went. Made it back to the driveway.

 

[TOBASH]

I have had similar issues with both gas and diesel engines over the years and it almost always is the pick up sock. As the engine runs and return fuel agitates the fuel in the tank, crap from the bottom gets sucked up to the screen. Eventually enough gets on it to restrict flow to the point of stalling. When the engine stalls and the pump stops creating suction the junk falls off and you can start the process again. If you have an old fuel system vacuum gauge you can plumb it into the suction side of the lift pump and tape it to the windshield, drive the truck if vacuum drops during power loss there is a restriction before the gauge or the previously mentioned clogged vent. If the vacuum goes up there is a restriction after the lift pump. If there is no change you're looking at a high pressure side problem.
Hope this helps

Welcome to Steel Soldiers

 

[marchplumber]

Welcome to Steel Soldiers

Ditto what TOBASH said!

 

[marchplumber]

Remember when @TNDRIVER said it wasn't the lift pump? Yeah, he was right.

It acted normal for 2 miles, then exactly the same symptoms.

Back on the Strap for the Tow of Shame it went. Made it back to the driveway.

Well, ya got a NEW lift pump! Congratulations!! Now, for something completely different!(Monty Python)

 

[TNDRIVER]

Remember when @TNDRIVER said it wasn't the lift pump? Yeah, he was right.

It acted normal for 2 miles, then exactly the same symptoms.

Back on the Strap for the Tow of Shame it went. Made it back to the driveway.

You are going to be amazed at what you find in the tank. The two cannon plugs above the "frame" over the driveshaft is the hardest part of removal in my experience, chews up old hands. Also if you are new to diesels I have two words for you"BIO KLEEN" . Gasket kit for the top plate and a new pickup sock and drain plug and a days work fixed mine up. I can start breathing again, I almost turned blue! And welcome to STEEL SOLDIERS also.

 

[98G]

So here's what i see looking into the tank from the fuel gauge sending unit hole.

Upper left is return as best I can tell, and center is the pickup.

I'm concerned about that ring on the return. Whats up with that?

What's to prevent me from addressing the sock by means of dumping fuel in the this opening and allowing it to exit via the drain hole?

 

[Mogman]

So here's what i see looking into the tank from the fuel gauge sending unit hole.

Upper left is return as best I can tell, and center is the pickup.

I'm concerned about that ring on the return. Whats up with that?

What's to prevent me from addressing the sock by means of dumping fuel in the this opening and allowing it to exit via the drain hole?

OMG!!!
IMHO you are going to have to pull that tank, there is no way again IMHO you are going to get it anywhere near clean any other way.
Black=bugs

 

[98G]

OMG!!!
IMHO you are going to have to pull that tank, there is no way again IMHO you are going to get it anywhere near clean any other way.
Black=bugs

Color is distorted. It isn't black. It's hard to get the camera and the light in at the same time.

 

[Milcommoguy]

Another CAMO tip of the day. This might not go over well with the OEM crowd. But about it.

Here's what I do do. One time and last! Drop the tank. Clean and ready as needed. DITCH the SOCK. I can hear it now .

Where the check valve is (3/8 line) Yeah... the one causing problems and most bypass with a hose... install an inline diesel filter instead.
(Plastic see thru is nice to eye ball the crap, now easy to service and cheap)

With the pre-filter installed, loop the hose in and around or whatever it takes to look sexy nice / secure. Plenty of room, up and out of the way.

Saves the pump too from getting junk and sending it to the hard to mess with HumV filter. I got rid of that too.

Next tip... How I went from this to that, CAMO

WAS TO THIS >>>>> >>>AND BIG RED>>>

 

[Mogman]

This is my medicine for the OEM lift pump and filter.
A Raptor pump and a spin on filter, mounted in the right wheel well.
I normally run 8-10PSI, the 3PSI the gauge is showing is the pressure it takes to open the return check valve in the IP, it would just sit there at 2-3PSI for weeks
Any more than 13-15PSI and you start to affect the IP timing.

 

[98G]

Another CAMO tip of the day. This might not go over well with the OEM crowd. But about it.

Here's what I do do. One time and last! Drop the tank. Clean and ready as needed. DITCH the SOCK. I can hear it now .

Where the check valve is (3/8 line) Yeah... the one causing problems and most bypass with a hose... install an inline diesel filter instead.
(Plastic see thru is nice to eye ball the crap, now easy to service and cheap)

With the pre-filter installed, loop the hose in and around or whatever it takes to look sexy nice / secure. Plenty of room, up and out of the way.

Saves the pump too from getting junk and sending it to the hard to mess with HumV filter. I got rid of that too.

Next tip... How I went from this to that, CAMO

View attachment 932586WAS TO THIS >>>>>View attachment 932588 >>>AND BIG RED>>>View attachment 932587

I like this idea. I was considering exactly that. Big coarse filter upstream from the lift pump. Keep the factory filter as well. With both, I'd be concerned about resistance to flow and worry the one pump is insufficient to force fuel through both.

 

[98G]

This is my medicine for the OEM lift pump and filter.
A Raptor pump and a spin on filter, mounted in the right wheel well.
I normally run 8-10PSI, the 3PSI the gauge is showing is the pressure it takes to open the return check valve in the IP, it would just sit there at 2-3PSI for weeks
Any more than 13-15PSI and you start to affect the IP timing.
View attachment 932596

I like that idea as well...

 

[Mogman]

I like that idea as well...

Run out of fuel or change the filter no problemo, just run the pump for a few minuets and it will prime itself.
Also no need for a filter before the pump as that gear pump will digest anything the fuel tank can send it

 

[98G]

Run out of fuel or change the filter no problemo, just run the pump for a few minuets and it will prime itself.
Also no need for a filter before the pump as that gear pump will digest anything the fuel tank can send it

What kind of funds do I need to set aside to make that happen?

 

[TNDRIVER]

So here's what i see looking into the tank from the fuel gauge sending unit hole.

Upper left is return as best I can tell, and center is the pickup.

I'm concerned about that ring on the return. Whats up with that?

What's to prevent me from addressing the sock by means of dumping fuel in the this opening and allowing it to exit via the drain hole?

I do not see the "sock" on the end of the pickup tube. Is it visible to you???? It should look whiteish...... You should be able to see the bottom of the tank with fuel in it if it's clean.........Anything other than diesel and maybe a small amount of water is all that should be visible. Cloudy, murky looking fuel in the tank is bad. If there are no "solids" in the tank that would require a pressure washer a good dose of Bioside to kill everything in the fuel "before" draining then follow up with treatment afterward "might" avoid pulling the tank. Be prepared to "cut" the drain plug and push it into the tank, mine have hardened and could not be removed.BUT, just draining will probably leave "crud" in the bottom of the tank. Get the tank clean and treat your fuel regularly and drain the filter regularly and they work fine. Some shop air in the hard line out of the tank will clear the sock for a while also.

 

[Milcommoguy]

Run out of fuel or change the filter no problemo, just run the pump for a few minuets and it will prime itself.
Also no need for a filter before the pump as that gear pump will digest anything the fuel tank can send it

Which pump are we working with ? I am old school to keep the HumV pump part factory Chevy / Delco / Carter . They work well and understood.

Haven't had priming problems with a quality lift pumps. (no leaky lines) Now the internal pump/checking valves could get gummed up gunk without pre-filter. My reasoning for the filter described, is the sock design, in-tank with its ability to bypass if clog with algae goo is getting closer to the engine.

TWO, I don't want to mess with dropping the tank AGAIN and have questions of the need for a tank sock. With the clogged inline check valves being bypassed... drop in a little cheap filter there and clog it up LOL

If for poor fuel and algae goo or maintenance, pull the drain plug and pressure / steam the poop out of tank and dry. (disconnect the easy fuel lines first)

Concerns of fuel flow was a thought thru the little outboard pre-filter. Testing in place one can easily observe the flow of fuel at WOT. So best to change it timely (cheap & easy) PMCS. Clear to see, metal ones too. If having to force fuel... I think time to change. Should flow freely

I am a little more concerned with the crap fuels blends causing bio-microbiological formations hiding in the tank, multiplying and going for a ride to the IP.

Using chemical agent to lube and kill and preserve and a "mechanic in a can" is very important.

Gear pump to make hamburger out of the algae... that's a idea, lol. Will it squeeze 4 microns of goo and catch it in the filter?

What's for lunch? Chinese food, CAMO

 

[Mogman]

I like this idea. I was considering exactly that. Big coarse filter upstream from the lift pump. Keep the factory filter as well. With both, I'd be concerned about resistance to flow and worry the one pump is insufficient to force fuel through both.

Why would you want to keep the OEM filter?

Which pump are we working with ? I am old school to keep the HumV pump part factory Chevy / Delco / Carter . They work well and understood.

Haven't had priming problems with a quality lift pumps. (no leaky lines) Now the internal pump/checking valves could get gummed up gunk without pre-filter. My reasoning for the filter described, is the sock design, in-tank with its ability to bypass if clog with algae goo is getting closer to the engine.

TWO, I don't want to mess with dropping the tank AGAIN and have questions of the need for a tank sock. With the clogged inline check valves being bypassed... drop in a little cheap filter there and clog it up LOL

If for poor fuel and algae goo or maintenance, pull the drain plug and pressure / steam the poop out of tank and dry. (disconnect the easy fuel lines first)

Concerns of fuel flow was a thought thru the little outboard pre-filter. Testing in place one can easily observe the flow of fuel at WOT. So best to change it timely (cheap & easy) PMCS. Clear to see, metal ones too. If having to force fuel... I think time to change. Should flow freely

I am a little more concerned with the crap fuels blends causing bio-microbiological formations hiding in the tank, multiplying and going for a ride to the IP.

Using chemical agent to lube and kill and preserve and a "mechanic in a can" is very important.

Gear pump to make hamburger out of the algae... that's a idea, lol. Will it squeeze 4 microns of goo and catch it in the filter?

What's for lunch? Chinese food, CAMO

Yes, Chinese Buffet in Portland TX today,

A couple hundred miles on the DuraVee today trying to pick up parts for the Bobcat 15C auger.
The seals and the 1 1/4 cold rolled pin was no problem, finding a piece of 1 1/4 SCH80 pipe to repair the swivel section I had to burn off is turning out to be quite the challenge, found some SCH40 which will work but is a little light, I was too lazy to go and crawl through my scrap pile putting my new knee at risk but it looks like where I will be heading here in a few.

The filter will catch anything going through the pump, depending on the filter rating, I would suspect anything 4 microns would go completely through the system including the IP without notice. those little cheapo filters are not going to stop anything close to 4 microns, in fact most of the really good filters like Wix etc, for most older diesel applications (like the Detroit) are in the 10-14 micron range, you can find finer filters but it really is not necessary.
In fact the Wix filter for the Dmax has a 7 micron rating and that engine is MUCH more sensitive to crap that the good ol Detroit.

 

[Milcommoguy]

Why would you want to keep the OEM filter?

Yes, Chinese Buffet in Portland TX today,

A couple hundred miles on the DuraVee today trying to pick up parts for the Bobcat 15C auger.
The seals and the 1 1/4 cold rolled pin was no problem, finding a piece of 1 1/4 SCH80 pipe to repair the swivel section I had to burn off is turning out to be quite the challenge, found some SCH40 which will work but is a little light, I was too lazy to go and crawl through my scrap pile putting my new knee at risk but it looks like where I will be heading here in a few.

The filter will catch anything going through the pump, depending on the filter rating, I would suspect anything 4 microns would go completely through the system including the IP without notice. those little cheapo filters are not going to stop anything close to 4 microns, in fact most of the really good filters like Wix etc, for most older diesel applications (like the Detroit) are in the 10-14 micron range, you can find finer filters but it really is not necessary.
In fact the Wix filter for the Dmax has a 7 micron rating and that engine is MUCH more sensitive to crap that the good ol Detroit.

All true... I concept is to eliminate the sock and screwing around dropping the PITA tank more than once.

NO sock hop dance for, CAMO

 

[98G]

Why would you want to keep the OEM filter?

Yes, Chinese Buffet in Portland TX today,

A couple hundred miles on the DuraVee today trying to pick up parts for the Bobcat 15C auger.
The seals and the 1 1/4 cold rolled pin was no problem, finding a piece of 1 1/4 SCH80 pipe to repair the swivel section I had to burn off is turning out to be quite the challenge, found some SCH40 which will work but is a little light, I was too lazy to go and crawl through my scrap pile putting my new knee at risk but it looks like where I will be heading here in a few.

The filter will catch anything going through the pump, depending on the filter rating, I would suspect anything 4 microns would go completely through the system including the IP without notice. those little cheapo filters are not going to stop anything close to 4 microns, in fact most of the really good filters like Wix etc, for most older diesel applications (like the Detroit) are in the 10-14 micron range, you can find finer filters but it really is not necessary.
In fact the Wix filter for the Dmax has a 7 micron rating and that engine is MUCH more sensitive to crap that the good ol Detroit.

Keep the factory filter to catch anything missed by the first filter. Make the first filter spin on and rather coarse.

 

[Mogman]

Keep the factory filter to catch anything missed by the first filter. Make the first filter spin on and rather coarse.

IMHO the entire reason to go to a spin on is to get rid of that OEM filter that is a PITA to work with, not to mention being a canister filter and should definitely not be the "final safety" filter in your system if you are going to run multiple filters.
If you want to keep the OEM as the "final safety" then why even go to a spin on???? If your fuel system has so much trash in it that you need two filters then you are going in the wrong direction, you need to clean up the system first and then keep it clean.

The OEM system is quite adequate as is, the only reason I go to an electric pump and spin on filter is for convenience and I hate loosing skin working on the OEM filter.

I also would NEVER EVER eliminate the sock, if you do then just one little piece of trash somehow (got kids???) gets into the tank it can completely stop the flow of fuel, AGAIN if you have that much trash in your fuel system then you need to clean it.

I had an acorn Cupule drive me completely nuts on a JD backhoe for YEARS until I removed the tank and flushed it out upside, that was all that was in the tank and it would find its way to the fuel pickup at the most inconvenient times, it had the perfect shape and size to completely plug the line.

99% of the fuel problems you are experiencing are because the truck sat for many years, probably with some water in the fuel, if you just take the time to clean it up correctly and do a reasonable amount of simple maintenance you will not ever have any more of the problems you have now.

You may have another lift pump failure in the future but even a $350 Raptor pump can fail but it is much easier to change and has a lifetime warranty and you can even hobble over to the next auto parts store, buy a cheapy pump and get home.

Sorry for the rant! Mogman out!