Got pulled over today. Smoke Issue

[NEIOWA]

Does "Barney Fife" in Ohio have diddly to say that is relevant about the emissions?

 

[Recovry4x4]

Someone mentioned wastegate back in post 14. Wait, that was I. That's where my money is going.

 

[Floridianson]

Someone mentioned wastegate back in post 14. Wait, that was I. That's where my money is going.

Your winning check will be in the mail if you are correct.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Looks like I'll be headed out tomorrow, so I'll try to get her to 88mph and "see some serious sh1t"!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Byz7eU8jF0

 

[marchplumber]

Interested to hear what the problem was/is......


88mph? With the transduceimecator? No, way!

 

[snowtrac nome]

I just ran in to the same problem with a new hx 40 I installed, It broke the shaft right behind the exhaust turbine from the intake side it felt normal but I could here a rattle in the exhaust. news flash cummins wouldn't warranty it. from here on out I will be buying cheap china built holstets I can afford to throw them away when they fail

 

[Eafarms]

Hahahahahaha 88mph. I know that in 5th gear screaming going down a gentle slope. I can do
exactly half that. ^^

cant wait to get some experienced eyes on this issue!! See you tomorrow Chris.

 

[TedO]

you should see how much the Mexican trucks smoke on the California freeways. I have seen some just belching out black smoke, and they are allowed to do it because of NAFTA I think. Sorry, off subject.

 

[Lukes_deuce]

Just another thought, someone mentioned the LDS turbo has some whistle to it. With the intake piping off, and someone else in the drivers seat, you should be able to give her some throttle and see/hear the turbo spool. It wont create a lot of boost, but it will increase the speed of the turbine and give you some indication of what the turbo is doing. If the waste gate is stuck open, you should here more of a whoosh sound when you give throttle. Check the blades for any shavings or shiny edges. It could be that shaft is broken and only the exducer is spinning.

Also, just as a suggestion, I would do some research on the size of the turbo. If you find out there is more wrong with the turbo than just the waste gate, it would probably be cheaper to find a used HT3B or similar sized unit to use. There are many options out there and we all know the mulitfuels could use a little more boost.

 

[Jericho]

A few , areas you may look at. If you have bad shaft seals in the inducer or exducer you can suck raw engine oil into the turbo and it will dramaticly increase black smoke. a careful check of you oil level with confirm or deny it , Also one can remove the intake or exhaust pipe and visually inspect the bottom surface of the inducer/exducer plenum for visible signs of oil. In a worst case the engine can run away , fueled only by the crank case oil. . to see if you turbo is pulling volume ( intake air is measured in volume, density and velocity) you can install a velocimeter , if you have one. a simple rotation of the inducer and a visual on the condition of the blades will confim its servicibility . The EXDUCER is tied on these rotor assemblies, so if one turns , the other has too, examine it as well, look for deformitys in the air foils , chunks missing, binding and excessive play both axial and lateral, it will be readily apparent. GENERALLY if your turbo is out of limits you will see SQUEALER damage ( damage caused by the the tips of the blades rubbing on the outer case.. you usually HEAR it before it seizes. Bad bearings can be HEARD with a stethescope , listen to a know good one , listen to one with bad bearings , you will Hear it . The turbo can be operated with the exhaust pipe disconnected . ensure its gases are diverted to forstall damage to the engine bay, DONT STICK your hand in it . Observe your EGT it is relative to turbo performance/ fuel air mixture. My LDT runs around 820 up a steep pull unloaded, can go as high as 980 , I back off then . Idle after a hard pull and 3 min is just going under 300 degrees. Black smoke is indicative of too little air / too much fuel . plain and simple, many things can cause it , bad injectors, clogged restricted air source , REALLY its too much fuel for too little air. Sucking oil into the turbo adds fossil fuel (MORE FUEL) (bad seal for example) and its UNMETERED fuel, it is drawn in through the intake air, not metered by the IP and injectors. The turbo on the deuce engines was done to reduce the smoke signature in combat environments and too placate some clean air people. It generally runs 5 to 10 PSI and does VERY LITTLE to add horsepower. ITS not comparable to a modern 30 pound boost Japanese turbo, Don't rebuild it, short of a simple bad seal you don't have the equipment to BALANCE the rotor assembly , Balance is done at overhaul to compensate for wear and a shift in the Balance pattern of the assy. . If your rebuilding it for tip squeal, shake, vibe or play in the assy it needs to be balanced, Two methods GE and Pratt and Whitney, if the shop doesn't know one from the other don't get it done there ! Ask your self, HOW FAST DOES IT SPIN, Its a hand grenade in a small package, Nay sayers will dispute my statements, All I can say is that I rebuilt thousands of aircraft ROOTS VANE compressors ( equivilent to a TURBO , JEt Engines and SMALL GAS TURBINES, over twenty years and hold degree in Aerospace Propulsion with a minor in HYdraulics and Pnuematics . Cheaper to buy a quality rebuilt or new NOS and youll get more longevity. Lost of post here on IP and "turning up the screws ,so no need to talk about it Not to belabor a point fellas, BUT I would never mislead any one, not my style, Your right 33 percent coal in America , 33 percent LPG/ NG both fossil fuels 67 % over all for electricity in America. Cia Report to the President about 2 years ago on domestic fossil and alternative fuel sources. So if your recharging your green car (Electric cars) 65 % percent of the electricity on the grid from Fossil , >o5 standard deviation rule, Likley at least 50 % are recharged using FOSSIL FUEL. GAS powered car, green foot print is 40 g Co2e/KM from Construction thru its life . Average ELECTRIC car can run as high as 70 g Co2 e /km , Electric cars use , not so green , production methods and materials . Remember all the batteries, rotor shielding and ect. Cost of recycleing for an electric car is estimated by FORD at 27 % higher than the average gas powered car. BLUE or WHITE smoke isn't a good thing nessacarily in a diesel either, a well tuned diesel running proper air fuel ratio will be almost indistinguisable . Black smoke is acknowledged as being no worse , BUT likely less polluteing than a white smoke. The fuel hydrocarbon, (Molocules) are larger in black smoke and results in SOOT, Soot falls to the ground quicker and isn't as MIXED in the atmosphere, It is then sequestered in the soil and plant life, Not good for anything but not bad based on color. Most modern diesels use additives to DILUTE or modify the fuel , do not read this as better, MAny times it is now just below standard OR converts the emmissions in to compounds that are not regulated. Hope this helps you, And Ask Smokey Yunic, he did the build, late 60s early 70s , Comparison was a chevy small block , and a 70 air pump motor, AIR PUMP REMOVED to show real pollution levels, not the diluted air bolstered emission. Thanks fellas

 

[Jericho]

ON the cummins HX40 turbo, its a well known failure mode, they do have a modified longstalk turbo with a reconfigured tip. adds a sweep back , has good initial reports,

 

[snowtrac nome]

well after putting out 1500 bucks for a new one from a dealer who blamed it on installation I'm not happy I used to rebuild air research units for Detroit's I know how to install them a couple hundred bucks for the over seas knock off's will will make no warranty more affordable.

 

[big block 88]

A few , areas you may look at. If you have bad shaft seals in the inducer or exducer you can suck raw engine oil into the turbo and it will dramaticly increase black smoke. a careful check of you oil level with confirm or deny it , Also one can remove the intake or exhaust pipe and visually inspect the bottom surface of the inducer/exducer plenum for visible signs of oil. In a worst case the engine can run away , fueled only by the crank case oil. . to see if you turbo is pulling volume ( intake air is measured in volume, density and velocity) you can install a velocimeter , if you have one. a simple rotation of the inducer and a visual on the condition of the blades will confim its servicibility . The EXDUCER is tied on these rotor assemblies, so if one turns , the other has too, examine it as well, look for deformitys in the air foils , chunks missing, binding and excessive play both axial and lateral, it will be readily apparent. GENERALLY if your turbo is out of limits you will see SQUEALER damage ( damage caused by the the tips of the blades rubbing on the outer case.. you usually HEAR it before it seizes. Bad bearings can be HEARD with a stethescope , listen to a know good one , listen to one with bad bearings , you will Hear it . The turbo can be operated with the exhaust pipe disconnected . ensure its gases are diverted to forstall damage to the engine bay, DONT STICK your hand in it . Observe your EGT it is relative to turbo performance/ fuel air mixture. My LDT runs around 820 up a steep pull unloaded, can go as high as 980 , I back off then . Idle after a hard pull and 3 min is just going under 300 degrees. Black smoke is indicative of too little air / too much fuel . plain and simple, many things can cause it , bad injectors, clogged restricted air source , REALLY its too much fuel for too little air. Sucking oil into the turbo adds fossil fuel (MORE FUEL) (bad seal for example) and its UNMETERED fuel, it is drawn in through the intake air, not metered by the IP and injectors. The turbo on the deuce engines was done to reduce the smoke signature in combat environments and too placate some clean air people. It generally runs 5 to 10 PSI and does VERY LITTLE to add horsepower. ITS not comparable to a modern 30 pound boost Japanese turbo, Don't rebuild it, short of a simple bad seal you don't have the equipment to BALANCE the rotor assembly , Balance is done at overhaul to compensate for wear and a shift in the Balance pattern of the assy. . If your rebuilding it for tip squeal, shake, vibe or play in the assy it needs to be balanced, Two methods GE and Pratt and Whitney, if the shop doesn't know one from the other don't get it done there ! Ask your self, HOW FAST DOES IT SPIN, Its a hand grenade in a small package, Nay sayers will dispute my statements, All I can say is that I rebuilt thousands of aircraft ROOTS VANE compressors ( equivilent to a TURBO , JEt Engines and SMALL GAS TURBINES, over twenty years and hold degree in Aerospace Propulsion with a minor in HYdraulics and Pnuematics . Cheaper to buy a quality rebuilt or new NOS and youll get more longevity. Lost of post here on IP and "turning up the screws ,so no need to talk about it Not to belabor a point fellas, BUT I would never mislead any one, not my style, Your right 33 percent coal in America , 33 percent LPG/ NG both fossil fuels 67 % over all for electricity in America. Cia Report to the President about 2 years ago on domestic fossil and alternative fuel sources. So if your recharging your green car (Electric cars) 65 % percent of the electricity on the grid from Fossil , >o5 standard deviation rule, Likley at least 50 % are recharged using FOSSIL FUEL. GAS powered car, green foot print is 40 g Co2e/KM from Construction thru its life . Average ELECTRIC car can run as high as 70 g Co2 e /km , Electric cars use , not so green , production methods and materials . Remember all the batteries, rotor shielding and ect. Cost of recycleing for an electric car is estimated by FORD at 27 % higher than the average gas powered car. BLUE or WHITE smoke isn't a good thing nessacarily in a diesel either, a well tuned diesel running proper air fuel ratio will be almost indistinguisable . Black smoke is acknowledged as being no worse , BUT likely less polluteing than a white smoke. The fuel hydrocarbon, (Molocules) are larger in black smoke and results in SOOT, Soot falls to the ground quicker and isn't as MIXED in the atmosphere, It is then sequestered in the soil and plant life, Not good for anything but not bad based on color. Most modern diesels use additives to DILUTE or modify the fuel , do not read this as better, MAny times it is now just below standard OR converts the emmissions in to compounds that are not regulated. Hope this helps you, And Ask Smokey Yunic, he did the build, late 60s early 70s , Comparison was a chevy small block , and a 70 air pump motor, AIR PUMP REMOVED to show real pollution levels, not the diluted air bolstered emission. Thanks fellas

i dont have any of those credentials jericho, but i did stay in a holliday in express about 13 months ago.

 

[red]

Also, just as a suggestion, I would do some research on the size of the turbo. If you find out there is more wrong with the turbo than just the waste gate, it would probably be cheaper to find a used HT3B or similar sized unit to use. There are many options out there and we all know the mulitfuels could use a little more boost.

The HT3B turbo is huge, extreme overkill for a multifuel if it could ever be spooled. If going with a more modern/better turbo the map for a hx35 is just about perfect, or an hx40 if some turbo lag is ok.

 

[wcuhillbilly]

Blaylock Turbo, Kansas, 620-856-5227. Helped me out tremendously when adding a turbo to an old tired NHC 250... had a locked up AR1200?? that they took the time to school me on, and came up with a suitable alternative to the Ht3b with a Schwitzer, for my 816 36,000lbs road hog.....

 

[Lukes_deuce]

The HT3B turbo is huge, extreme overkill for a multifuel if it could ever be spooled. If going with a more modern/better turbo the map for a hx35 is just about perfect, or an hx40 if some turbo lag is ok.

Well the HT3B isnt huge. HX35 is too small, its small for the 5.9 Cummins it usually comes on. HX40s dont have the best track record as stated before. Personally, if Im going to turbo something, its going to be an upgrade. The HT3B is usually a 73mm to 75mm inducer so nothing crazy. I was suggesting it since its a very common turbo and cheap if his original turbo is shot. You could go out an buy a S475 which is the similar size but much newer technology and will spool enough to make the LDS come to life! Lol

 

[gimpyrobb]

Well, I couldn't say for sure what was wrong with his turbo, but I believe there is more than one issue at hand. We decided to put the new one I had on and it cleared up the smoke and made up to 15psi. We also put a thermocouple in for his pyro while we had the turbo off. He should be able to get her dialed in pretty good now.

 

[Lukes_deuce]

Blaylock Turbo, Kansas, 620-856-5227. Helped me out tremendously when adding a turbo to an old tired NHC 250... had a locked up AR1200?? that they took the time to school me on, and came up with a suitable alternative to the Ht3b with a Schwitzer, for my 816 36,000lbs road hog.....

What was the turbo you ended up with? Im curious what they suggested for a wrecker.

 

[red]

Well the HT3B isnt huge. HX35 is too small, its small for the 5.9 Cummins it usually comes on. HX40s dont have the best track record as stated before. Personally, if Im going to turbo something, its going to be an upgrade. The HT3B is usually a 73mm to 75mm inducer so nothing crazy. I was suggesting it since its a very common turbo and cheap if his original turbo is shot. You could go out an buy a S475 which is the similar size but much newer technology and will spool enough to make the LDS come to life! Lol

Compared to the stock C and D turbos on a multifuel yes a ht3b is huge. Problem is not the induction size it's the exhaust side of the ht3b. the 7.8L multifuel doesn't move enough exhaust to spool up that size turbo.

Hx35 with the 14cm housing is one of the turbos that came on the DT466 engines during the 90's, 7.6L engine which makes similar power to the 8.3 Cummins. The 35 that came on the dodge trucks has the smaller, more restricted 12cm exhaust housing and the lower number of blades on the input turbine. The stock C and D turbos have similar measurements to a hx30 and are capable of destroying a multifuel.

Then theres the volume of incoming air with the turbo. Due to the 22:1 compression the multifuel can't handle a high volume or high pressure of intake air, lifts the heads and blows the gaskets (if lucky). All this has been discussed often in the deuce modification section.




gimpyrobb I think you're right. Fuel would be turned up pretty high if it's making 15psi.

 

[big block 88]

Well, I couldn't say for sure what was wrong with his turbo, but I believe there is more than one issue at hand. We decided to put the new one I had on and it cleared up the smoke and made up to 15psi. We also put a thermocouple in for his pyro while we had the turbo off. He should be able to get her dialed in pretty good now.

Good job sir!!

Im curious if the compressor shaft was intact and turning both impellers.