K&N Air filter for the deuce

[Djfreema]

My fuel is turned up. I didnt count the flats, just cranked away and was maxing out my boost guage right away (20lbs). I turned the fuel down to get about 15 lbs of boost on acceleration and just under 1200 degrees on the pyrometer. As for the stock housing, I cut right on the first inner bend,placed 5" of sheet metal cut to fit the diameter, welded it in then welded the stock bottom back on. 5" is a tad too long, I should have done 4" because now I have to unbolt the top of the air filter housing to get the filter out due to clearances issues by the turbo. I should have taken pictures of it when I did it. I have a "D" turbo by the way. I also drilled out a bunch of larger holes in the metal screen of the air intake mushroom. I plan on putting a 90 degree elbow on the mushroom cap to avoid water soaking the air filter in the rain. The turbo is alot louder now, the paper filter really muffles it. I just loaned out my truck yesterday for a couple of weeks about 60 miles away. As soon as I get it back I will take a bunch of pictures and get an album set up, we finally got a new computer so I can download pics. Another tip, I removed the spring loaded cup thing on the bottom of the air filter housing to gain space inside the housing. I just drilled out the 8 spot welds, they are hard to find but they are there and the whole piece just pops off. IMHO its definately worth doing if your fuel is turned up. I have first hand experience in melting holes in pistons of a GM 6.5 turbo diesel with the fuel turned up too much. Ill post pics soon.

 

[wallew]

I concur with what everyone has said here.

You seem to skip over the part of "30,000 miles change the filter". Pick your number, you will still be purchasing a second filter. I realize paper IS normally cheaper.

I spent $44 for the K&N and it's going to take at least a week to get here. As soon as anyone purchases a second one, I'm ahead on a monetary basis. And I'm thrifty (read poor or perhaps cheap) so I HAVE to purchase something once and figure out how to make it last and last.

Yes, I DO NEED an EGT AND a BOOST gauge. I CONCUR. They are indespensible. ESPECIALLY if I put the K&N in place of the Napa Gold that is currently there (it looks new, so I could get lots of miles before I switch over - or until I get the proper guages). The Napa Gold filter that is in there right now costs $46.59 from Napa's Online store (more than my K&N). Here's the link to Napa Online :

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=FIL&PartNumber=2837&Description=Air+Filter+(Gold)+-+Industrial

Are there ANY mili spec pyro or boost guages out there? Or any that can be used in place of standard ones? I'm all about using as many of the correct parts as I can. As long as I can afford it.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Jim, I'm thrifty too. I'm always shopping for deuce stuff in unlikely places. I've been averaging around $10 to $15 for NOS deuce air cleaner elements. Still have 2 new ones outside although this wrecker is going to claim one when the multifuel goes in in a couple of weeks.

 

[wallew]

Kenneth,
My gunsmithing instructor had a saying that always stuck with me.

"If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying"

And I always liked Richard Petty's definition of luck.

"95% preparation, 5% opportunity"

Sounds like we ALL subscribe to both those concepts...

 

[Recovry4x4]

Another famous person who used that quote was the notorious Smokey Yunick of NASCAR fame. He was the quintessential rule bender.

"If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying"

 

[mcinfantry]

im willing to bet i drive my deuce more frequently than most (not all) and it will take about 5 to 6 years to put 30,000 miles on mine. its primary transportation for me, besides my work car.

i wouldnt care if the K&N was free. i dont believe there is any possible way to flow more air and filter more. the true milspec filters flow more because of more pleats, vs the napa one, but i doubt it filters more, so i doubt the k&N has that many more pleats, plus every single one i have used leaves that residue in the intake. every one.

at the cost of an engine rebuild, and/or parts im not going to risk a multifuel.

i look at it like nv4500 oil. you must use syntorq. its expensive and hard to find local for a reasonable price. sure you can use gl4. but since fiber synchros are 250.00 why run amsoil/royal purple? not worth the chance, imo.

if my deuce were more of a playtoy i might try it. but as long as i need it for what im doing, im taking no chance.

wallew, good luck, and let us know how it comes out.

 

[wallew]

Lee,
I DO UNDERSTAND where you are coming from. And we each march to the beat of the drummer of our choice.

Having said that, the US MILITARY is currently putting Royal Purple through it's 'testing program' and have been for several months. I have NOT heard the outcome yet.

BUT if the US military does approve it for ALL current vehicular usage, then I figure it's good enough for me. Again, I CAN'T SAY THEY HAVE OR HAVE NOT, because the test is still on going.

Regarding K&N. If you get a 'residue' on your intakes, then perhaps yours had too much oil on them? I have NEVER had one problem, NOR have I had any residue on ANY INTAKE of any vehicle I've used.

And just kind of an FYI. My wife purchased a new 2005 Subaru Outback Wagon Sport. I went to the service department and asked them SUBARU'S feelings on using K&N as a replacement for their paper filter. Their answer was, "We recommend it".

Then I called SOA (Subaru of America - Cherry Hills, NJ) and repeated this question to a couple of different engineering types and got the EXACT same response.

YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY from mine. And you gotta do what you gotta do.

BUT only using the old style filter is saying that technology hasn't improved since the early 1960's. IT HAS. Tremendously.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Not one throwing stones here but if these filters and the antiquated GL-1 gear oil has kept these trucks working all these years in all these countries and all these different temperatures and all these different conflicts/wars, than it's going to be fine for my pride & joy. For me anyway, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[wallew]

Kenneth,
While I do understand the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

I come from the 'there is ALWAYS a better, easier way to do something'.

Otherwise we would all still be riding horses and shoveling... well, you know ...

I LOVE all the old iron out there. And it's MY opinion that some of the new stuff coming down the pike was DESIGNED TO FAIL just after that gee-gaw is out of warranty. Having said that, I do TRY to keep up. My newest vehicle is a 1991 GMC Suburban and the wife had to kick me several times to sell my 1977 GMC van converted to 4 wheel drive when new and buy my current Suburban. I'm glad she did because NOW we have all the amenities that I want. A/C front and rear, XM radio, custom interior with 4 capt chairs (all out of two different Suburbans) and a 350 V8 with TBI (and I'm not a huge fan of fuel injected gas engines - especially the TBI).

But as with everthing else, we all live and learn. Cause you are either growing or dying, ya know?

 

[Recovry4x4]

I suport anyone making improvements to their trucks. I'm just speaking for myself. Speaking of the burb, thats about what my next ride is going to be. Tired of the electronics on my dually and all those electric doors in the a/c system. Going back to the 73-91 burb. My only real requirements are 3/4 ton 4x4, 6.2 diesel and both a/c. I can add everything else. When done (like anything ever is) It will be 383 green and have all the CUCV ammenities on the outside. Factory seats covered in canvas of course. As long as I can stay ahead of the rust monster, it shoud be my last regular vehicle. Just can't justify the $40,000 price tag of the newer trucks and can't fix em either. As much as I've enjoyed putting the 200,000 miles on the 94 Chev, I think the burb is a better choice for me, the shade tree mechanic.

 

[Boatcarpenter]

Some of us like to ride horses and shovel and use paper filters. If we wanted new we would have new, but we like old and like to keep it that way

 

[wallew]

I told my wife she can BURY ME in my 1991 Suburban... My company name is "White River". Our 'children' are Great Pyrenees, which is what's in that logo. Whiter River is what they call an avalanche up in the high country. One day I saw all our 'kids' running down a slope and it reminded me of an avalanche - hence 'Whiter River' with the dog's head logo...

 

[Boatcarpenter]

http://www.sounddomain.com/MakeModel/Chevrolet/Suburban
I think your last post got missent. I think it was supposed to go to the above link

 

[Wick246]

"can't justify the $40,000 price tag of the newer trucks and can't fix em either."

That is just so very true. I just cannot fathom many family's affording new vehicles like that every 6 or 7 years plus the maintenance and upgrade costs that go along with them. I'm not rich by any stretch but not on the bottom of the pay scale either and I cannot touch the new trucks unless it was the only toy I wanted for the next 20 years or more. Even then I'd be too scared to take it offroad and enjoy it. Would be nice, but hopefully busting my hump to get out of debt and making due with smarter trucks will payoff someday. I must be getting old - I let the "Jones" leave me in the dust as I just couldn't keep up anymore. I have a '79 Ford supercab that I bought with the intention of making an affordable, very strong, do-all truck. That was before I knew anything about military trucks or that they were even available to the public for reasonable prices. Now I just can't get too excited about the Ford anymore. I have a rebuilt transmission, transfer case, and overdrive unit all painted, bead blasted and sitting on the floor here at work waiting to be installed but the cost of axles, lockers and a few other pieces will cost more than the Deuce route.

 

[dma251]

I am curious - can anyone here think of more then 1 vehicle currently in production that comes from the FACTORY (not a tuner shop) with anything BUT a paper filter? I can't think of only 1 possible vehicle, but even that is a stretch....

as a former service writer for a dealership (not a job I would ever want to do again...) I can say this - if it isn't in WRITING from a manufacturer, you can't believe it. I doubt ANY engineer types working for Subaru, or Honda, or any other reputable brand would be willing to send out a TSB saying that their employer recommends anything but OEM filters for their vehicle. That said, it is very easy for a service writer to issue his opinion and say "sure, we love K/N filters...." just because they are a fan themselves.... I say that because I have done it. I used to recommend them all the time. If the manufacturer knew that I would have been fired... I wasn't authorized to speak for the factory in that way.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but the fact is most manufacturer's would not offer up a K/N straight from the dealer's lot because they DO let more dirt in. and they ARE much harder to get to seal properly in an airbox.

If a guy REALLY wanted to improve the intake performance on a Deuce, I would look at the concept of the scotty2 system, and try something like the external aircan from a 5 ton with a tapered AFE PRO cone filter. These filters are also an oiled cotton filter, but the quality and filtration is pretty high (even these probably don't filter as well as a large paper filter). With a setup like this, you could see some real EGT reductions. Especially if you kept the intake ducting short after the filter and kept the whole system OUTSIDE the engine compartment. I might try something sometime when when I have time to experiment.

Check these links out for ideas and info -

http://www.scottysystems.ca/airintakesystems.html

http://www.afefilters.com/pg7.htm

 

[DrFoster]

I concur with what everyone has said here.

You seem to skip over the part of "30,000 miles change the filter". Pick your number, you will still be purchasing a second filter. I realize paper IS normally cheaper.

I spent $44 for the K&N and it's going to take at least a week to get here. As soon as anyone purchases a second one, I'm ahead on a monetary basis. And I'm thrifty (read poor or perhaps cheap) so I HAVE to purchase something once and figure out how to make it last and last.

Yes, I DO NEED an EGT AND a BOOST gauge. I CONCUR. They are indespensible. ESPECIALLY if I put the K&N in place of the Napa Gold that is currently there (it looks new, so I could get lots of miles before I switch over - or until I get the proper guages). The Napa Gold filter that is in there right now costs $46.59 from Napa's Online store (more than my K&N). Here's the link to Napa Online :

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=FIL&PartNumber=2837&Description=Air+Filter+(Gold)+-+Industrial

Are there ANY mili spec pyro or boost guages out there? Or any that can be used in place of standard ones? I'm all about using as many of the correct parts as I can. As long as I can afford it.

I just don't like the filtration rate of the K&N. Not rated well enough in particle size until the filter gets dirty... It also clogs real fast in dusty environments... If you never go off road, you'll probably never have to do anything with it for a couple of years.

Good news on your gauges tho. I have some coming in from my buddy at the airport off of an aircraft. I'm going to figure out how to mount them, and then we can reproduce them very quickly. I'm placing in an EGT, A/F, Manifold Pressure, and fuel flow meter. I'm going to paint the surrounds to match the CARC paint over at Randy's shop.

All in all, 10"-12" across, about 3.5" tall. It will be about 50% smaller if I find some compact gauges. If you want (since I don't have a truck yet, LOL) we can use yours as a guniea pig.

I don't think a pre-turbo EGT is very safe. If the probe got hot and broke, it would kill your turbine wheel. We can tap the EGt about 2"-4" after the turbo and the A/F further down the line. MP is easy, I found about 1/2 a dozen areas on the manifold where we could insert the line. Fuel flow requires a little sending unit, but that is simple too.

We won't have to worry about wiring in a 12V bus on your truck, as aircraft gauges are all 23-28V and WAY more accurate than auto gauges.

 

[DrFoster]

... WHEW this is one hell of a hot topic.

I forgot to touch on EGT's:

If you want to keep them low, reduce intake resistance (it is already minimal from my math in the deuce, so no factor) OR increase the collection side of the turbo. Backpressure before the turbo (also called a "choke point") can make EGT skyrocket. Not all of the time is A/F ratio a concern. We also have to watch how fast the turbo is spinning, because it doesn't matter how many PSI you build, it is how well that PSI flows. My SRT has a turbo that can produce 22psi, but after 18psi, it is spooled so hard that it begins to surge and does nothing but blow super hot air.

Wanna see a glowing turbo, put your EGT's up around 1250 and watch the steel loose it's composure.

 

[DrFoster]

Me again, just had to do some basic math.

If the LDT engine has a volumetric efficiency (VE) of only 50% at 2600 rpm's, then it is only drawing 234 cfm through the air filter and into the turbo.

Roughly, if the engine had a VE of 70%, it would only draw 324 cfm.

Hope that helps with the filter war. That shows that any filter that size, made of paper, fiber, cloth, whatever, will still be able to flow almost 3 to 4 times the amount the turbo can suck in at full throttle...

My answer: Just put a filter on it.

 

[Elwenil]

I am curious - can anyone here think of more then 1 vehicle currently in production that comes from the FACTORY (not a tuner shop) with anything BUT a paper filter? I can't think of only 1 possible vehicle, but even that is a stretch....

I'll say this much, I am a Parts Advisor at a Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealership and none of our vehicles come stock with a K&N or any similar filter. The 06' Viper Coupe even has dual paper filters, as does the SRT-10 Viper engine'd Ram, and my 230 HP Turbo SRT-4. Wit that said, the Mopar performance parts catalog does list several K&N style filters for various vehicles. As with everything else in the performance parts catalog, they are intended with no warranty and for use on off-road vehicles only and the warranty of a new vehicle may be voided by using them. The only literature I have ever seen about using these type filters in a Chrysler product was that it was ok for performance use, except for vehicles that fall under the need for the severe service maintenance schedule. I have used several K&N filters and similar products and have been happy with them, but on several engines I have noticed a lot more dark color to my oil when using them. I will also say that when cleaning and re-oiling to K&Ns specs, it is very normal to have an oily residue in the air cleaner and intake tubes. This was also the case on the oil "oil bath" air cleaners in use up until the mid 70s. I do like the K&N filters, but they are like performance oil filters, they sacrifice filtering ability for flow. To me on something like a Deuce, if more air is needed I'd double up on the air cleaners somehow. Perhaps a fender filter unit as mentioned before from a 5 ton or similar. A K&N will get clogged very quickly in a dusty environment, especially if the filter element is exposed like on a open air cleaner like on a muscle car V8 or on a cold air intake like on an import tuner. I know this from experience. For my 72' Charger road racer, I had two of the same element so I could rotate them while they were being cleaned because of this.

With that said, the new AEM short ram intake I bought for my 05' SRT-4 today, has a new style element that has no oil and is some sort of re-usable synthetic material. On AEMs website it compares them to a K&N oil style and lists the irregular filtering as the reason for the swap and in comparison. I'm going to install it tomorrow and see how it does.

On the synthetic oil bit, I like synthetics, but you have to be careful what you use and what you use it in. As Lee said, the NV4500s take a very special lube and not using it can be very expensive. BTW Lee, we stock about 9 different kinds of gear oil for the various transmissions, transfer cases, transfer units, and axles that Mopar is now using. Over half are synthetic and none will swap in place of each other. Bizarre, eh? My SRT-4's manual suggests using Mobil-1 full synthetic in the engine for "spirited driving" but I have seen several bulletins that reference problems found in using Purple stuff and Amsoil in different applications. I for one, don't trust Amsoil and I have never seen anyone I know use the Purple. I have had a few guys run Redline stuff with different degrees of success, usually in a 4X4 or a drag car.
Just my .02

 

[DrFoster]

Elwenil,

I've got the SRT-4 too, all set for rally. Been a member of the SRTOC for a loooong time.

I agree - I'd NEVER use anything besides oil in my performance turbo engine!!! It is totally unknown what coking will take place on a non-water cooled turbo! those PTFE additives have been banned from the bottle labels because the FTC showed that there is no improvement in engine performance or reliability. If anything, when it hits those hot bearings in the turbo, it will bake nice and crispy. (I'll hunt down the link where all of the oil additive companies got sued for inaccurate advertising, or just flat out lying. If you're interested, just pm me.)

As far as synthetics, They don't gain or loose viscosity under heat and cold like dino oil. I use those like it was the word from God himself and that makes me feel good about running that $8000 engine to 6500 RPM at full boost. That is on a gasser tho. For a diesel, I liked using rotola for my own piece of mind, but found no difference with regular dino oil.

Did you gain anything with the AEM? My stock airbox was good all the way through about 325 hp, then it started becoming restrictive. I've heard of folks actually loosing from it, but I don't see how. Maybe turbulence? I don't know. the stock airbox should be 100 times more turbulent.