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limited slip on M35A2?

1stDeuce

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I don't think you'd need hardly any more brake jobs than normal... You're not spinning the tires at 50mph and standing on both pedals, you're in Low, 1st or 2nd gear, with very low wheel speeds, and using the brakes just enough to get the truck to crawl forward on it's own, which likely wouldn't require much pressure at all in mud or snow or something like that. We're not rock crawling, just need a little more help...

I think this would be ideal for the infrequent use that these trucks see offroad when gathering firewood... If I ever get out of SE MI, I might have to make this work...
C

BTW, Gimpy, did you fall asleep on the keyboard again with your forehead on the spacebar before posting?? :)
 

jesusgatos

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Just keep in mind the high maintenance of ARBs. They usually work great, but do have issues. I 'wheel with several people with them, and they are always pulling them apart for one reason or another. Nice for the selectable locker, but complex and high maintenance.
I'd like to know what kind of applications (axles) you're talking about, and what kind of problems your friends have with their ARB's. I've put thousands and thousands of miles on ARB lockers in a few different vehicles, and never had ANY trouble with them.

To go the cheapest route, you might lincoln lock the front and toss on some lockouts... That would allow you to drag the truck around a little easier by the front axle, which usually has decent traction thanks to weight, while allowing you to unlock completely to elim any steering issues when you're not in full 6x6.

Man, adding Detroits to the rear would be sweet, but justifying $1300 for a $2000 truck is just not easy... If I was offroad that much, I might just lincoln lock the rears and call it good.
I was thinking about doing this to one of my rear axles (welding the diff and installing locking hubs). Would prefer to just run ARB's, but that seems like a pretty decent low-budget solution to me.

Ya know, it just occurred to me another even cheaper idea... If a person replumbed the rear brakes and tied the two left rears together on a circuit and the two right rears together on a circuit, you could use a momentary switch to the line lock on each circuit to hold pressure off one side or the other. Then pressing gently on the brake pedal would stop the spinning tires, and transfer some torque to the wheels with traction that weren't spinning.... Ok, might need three line locks... One fed via diodes so if either rear gets excited, you don't put pressure on the front brakes... But I bet you'd see noticable improvement even without limiting front pressure... Just add enough brake to get you moving again... I used to do that even with no linelocks and two open diffs, just add some brake pressure to get the left to right torques closer to equal... Many times, it'll get you through!!

Voila, Poor Man's Brake Traction Control... "Yeah, my deuce has PMBTC... It's unstoppable!!"
:)

C
Take a look at these cutting brakes.
 

rattlecan6104

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what about a spool with a lockout hub on the axle, have 1 drive tire for normal driving, then flip the switch and have all the traction on one axle that you need, still have the other rear axle helping you keep tracking straight.
 

cranetruck

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......

Take a look at these cutting brakes.
Funny, I started a project like this about ten years ago and to this day the rear brakes are split on my deuce. Project wasn't completed, I was going to use two electric "brake locks" from a wrecker and "lock" one side or the other to help in taking turns in slick mud. Flipping the hubs and mounting single 1100s helped, so the project got lost among all the other hair brained ideas...
 

jesusgatos

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They work. VERY well. and they're a LOT of fun...

I put 'em in this truck:





Not sure what size master cylinder/s and how much leverage you might need in order to make something appropriately sized for the Deuce though. And I guess you'd still need to route the pressure lines through the air-pack, because I really doubt you could generate enough pressure manually. You'd need a 6ft lever, just like getting the lug-nuts off. Hah. Some type of button/lever-activated momentary electric line-locks might indeed be the best way to go.
 

1stDeuce

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Yeah, cutting brakes, that's kinda what I'm talking about. But as jesusgatos points out, you'd need a 6' lever and a big mastercyl to supply enough fluid and pressure to seat in two big deuce drum brakes... Hence my suggestion to use the line locks to keep pressure from the tires that aren't spinning, while you apply pressure to the spinning wheels with the foot brake.

The electronic version of this is what I do for a job, and it really doesn't take that much pressure to get a vehicle moving if it's not terribly loaded or stuck or lodged...

Then again, Bjorn's method is what I've done on my own deuce after sticking it in wet grass and then snow with the duals. I hope the singles are much better!!

C
 

tiger422

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They work. VERY well. and they're a LOT of fun...

I put 'em in this truck:





Not sure what size master cylinder/s and how much leverage you might need in order to make something appropriately sized for the Deuce though. And I guess you'd still need to route the pressure lines through the air-pack, because I really doubt you could generate enough pressure manually. You'd need a 6ft lever, just like getting the lug-nuts off. Hah. Some type of button/lever-activated momentary electric line-locks might indeed be the best way to go.

Cool you need more levers :-D
 

jesusgatos

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Cool you need more levers :-D
Hah. The two small levers are just for the Atlas transfer-case, so they're don't get used as often as the cutting brakes or the transmission shifter. I tried to copy the layout that the rally cars use, where the shifter and cutting brakes are right next to the steering wheel. Makes a lot of sense if you think about it. If you've never driven a car with cutting brakes, it's like playing with an E-brake but about 100 better. You can do full pivot-turns INSTANTLY. Not how you'd be using them in a deuce, but...
 
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I had selectable air lockers on front axe of most of my deuces in the army. I found them to be great. If i had a deuce i would put them on the back most commercial semi have them on there drive axles. You can get the best of both worlds.
 

nhdiesel

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Uh, this is incorrect!
Actually he is correct. Posi, short for Positraction, is the name GM gave to their limited-slips back in the 60's. Its just a name brand for a limited-slip differential. It would be like calling any locker a Detroit. There is a big difference between a locker and a limited slip though. Limited slip uses clutches (or sometimes gears) to help put more traction to the spinning tire. You will never get 100% of power to that tire though, because of the design of a limited slip. With a locker you can get 100% of available power to the tire with the most traction, and usually at the same time reducing power to the tire without traction. (ARBs are the exception, which simply lock both axles together).

More can be read about LIMITED SLIPS & LOCKERS HERE.

Jim
 

Harold43512

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On a posi, both wheels are locked in when spinning. On limited slip, the wheel that is spinning is stopped and power transferred to the wheel that isn't spinning.

From what I can recall, GM products had positraction, and due to patents or some sort of copyright, Ford and Dodge had to go with limited slip instead. Don't know if that is still true these days or not.

Have any of you guys put a Detroit Locker in the #1 axle along with the drives?
 

mudguppy

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Actually he is correct. Posi, short for Positraction, is the name GM gave to their limited-slips back in the 60's. Its just a name brand for a limited-slip differential. ...
i'm with you - i understand how limited slips work and how they are different from lockers. i also understand that the term 'posi-' is a brand name much like 'velcro' is a brand name for "hook and loop fasteners". but most people think 'velcro' is a product, just like many GM fans believe 'posi-' is a product.

but i was curious how it was stated that 'posi' is different from a conventional limited slip differential. the answer is: it isn't.

...but i'm always fastenated by rumors. :grin:
 

SasquatchSanta

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I like the front locker with spin-out hubs that someone posted about earlier. IMHO using a front locker with spin-outs AND the split, right & left, brake controls would be better than lockers all around.

I'm not heavily into off roading but what I've seen of lockers both on and off road I don't like them. We installed front and read lockers in my orange M37 (The Pumpkin) when we built it last year. (For the sake of this conversation, an M37 is a bobbed deuce in minature.)

Installing lockers front and rear on a highway vehicle is a mistake. Even running in the woods on soft dirt the driveline tends winds up quickly and make the truck extremely hard to steer. The F & R lockers are great to get yourself out of a bog but 4WD can only be used for a short time.

I drive a lot on highway snowpack. Not ice so much like conditions say in Iowa and Kansas but snowpack. I have to be real careful on glazed snowpack because if you don't pay attention to the throttle the back-end can and will break lose, jump out and scare the daylights out of you. If I could run in standard 4WD this wouldn't be a problem but the twin lockers won't allow 4DW operation, even on snowpack, for any extended time. The back end breaking loose and jumping out is scary enough on a little M37. I sure as **** wouldn't want to experience in on my bobbed deuce.

Sometimes you can go too far with the mods as I did with the front and rear/twin lockers.
 

stumps

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There are two different plans for "limited-slip" differentials, that I am aware of:

The first is dirt simple in that there is a spring loaded clutch pack that is always engaged between the two axles. Whenever one wheel rotates faster than the other, whether it is because you are turning, or because one wheel lost traction, the clutch pack slips, transferring some of the power from the faster spinning wheel to the slower spinning wheel.

Simple, wasteful of energy, continually wearing itself and your tires out; it helps just enough most of the time.

The second is vastly more complicated. It is what is usually called posi-traction, or posi-loc. I don't think I can really do justice in describing its operation without introducing a bunch of terms, and diagrams, but I'll try. In the posi, there is a system of coupling cams in the form of V shaped wedges that control a pair of spring loaded clutch packs. The cams work in such a way that if both wheels are being driven equally, the cams disengage the clutch packs. If one wheel is rotating faster than the other, and that wheel is driving the differential (you are in a turn), the cam for the pack of the faster wheel, disengages that wheel's clutch pack. But if one wheel is turning faster than the other, and the differential is driving the wheel (eg. spinning), the clutch actuator rides up the wedges squeezing the clutch pack of the spinning wheel and locks the axles.

Not a great description, but I hope it suffices for the purposes of this discussion.

The first limited-slip differential is what you get on the smaller, cheaper pickup trucks and vans, the second is what shows up on the bigger Ford 10.25 inch, and Dana 60 and 70 rears on pickup trucks...

I don't know who invented posi... the patents are long expired..., but I suspect Dana did the deed. Dana axles have appeared on every US make of truck through out the ages.

-Chuck
 

nhdiesel

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O.K., for the ones who apparently missed the link I previously provided:

Limited Slip Differentials, Posi-Traction (Posi, Posis)
Limited Slip and positraction (posi) differentials are designed to "limit" the tendency of open differential to send power to a wheel that lacks traction and redirect the power to a degree to the other wheel of the axle. The Limited Slip and Positraction differential will send power to both wheels equally when traveling straight, however when one wheel spins due to a lack of traction, the differential will automatically provide torque to the other wheel with traction. Limited Slip and Positraction (posi) differentials limit the loss of torque to a slipping wheel through various mechanisms such as clutches, gears cones, and other methods dependant on the unit. The limited slip and positraction will not provide 100% lock up of the differential in extreme situations such as when a wheel completely looses traction. Limited Slip and Positraction (posi) differentials are recommended for daily driven vehicles and are used in many applications where traction is sometimes needed as in emergency vehicles. They are also ideal for front axles of 4x4 vehicles that are not equipped with front hubs that can be disengaged. The term "positraction" ("posi" for short) was used by General Motors years ago for their limited slip differential and has been used to refer to limited slips since.

Whether operated by cams & gears (which some trucks, and even cars, used) or by clutches, they end up operating the same way- attempting to lock both axles together, but allowing some slippage so the vehicle can make tight turns without having a tire skidding. Positraction is GM's brand for it, just as Sur-Grip was Chrysler's.


Jim
 

mudguppy

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There are two different plans for "limited-slip" differentials, that I am aware of:...
they are still limited slip differentials (LSDs). there is no such product as "posi-traction" - it is the brand name given to a limited slip.


... The first limited-slip differential is what you get on the smaller, cheaper pickup trucks and vans, the second is what shows up on the bigger Ford 10.25 inch, and Dana 60 and 70 rears on pickup trucks...
you ever taken one apart? because what your describing doesn't exist in my Ford Dana 80 rear diff with OEM LSD.

you are right, though - there are many many different methods in achieving "torque biasing", which is the technical method for 'limiting torque transfer' which is a fancy way of saying "limiting slip".

the basic style of spring loaded clutch pack type LSD (which you described first) is very simple, very straight-forward, and is what comes in OEM vehicles because it is cheap. also, they don't regulate or control torque transfer very well, which is why they hardly do anything at all.

the more complex LSDs (which, one style, you described second) does a much better job at "torque biasing". there are many different methods (spring actuation, wedges, balls, cones, etc) for applying more torque per revolution, but they all are doing essentially the same thing.

but let's get back to 'torque bias'. this concept transmits a ratio of torque, not necessarily a force. you see, the simpler style of LSD only creates a certain amount of resistance. for example, say it takes 150ft-lbs of torqe to overcome the clutch pack on the simple LSD [and for the remainder of this post, i'm just using BS #'s for example sake]. that means that when a wheel loses traction, it will take 150ft-lbs of torque from the input torque and effectively transfer it (by resistance) to the wheel that has more traction. sometimes this is enough. often, it ain't jack and just gets you into further stuckness.

the more complex LSDs have a designed 'torque bias' - this means they transmit a ratio of torque to thru the diff relative to the input torque and rotational speeds. example, say you have an Auburn LSD and it has a maximum bias of 4:1 - that means it will transfer approximately 75% of the torque and retain about 25% at full gain. so if you input 500ft-lbs to your diff while trying to get thru the mud, then it will send (again, by resistance) about 125ft-lbs to the wheel w/ traction. but send 1000ft-lbs down the pike and it should send about 250ft-lbs to the traction wheel. this is also the style of LSD that should help by using the P-brake or by applying the brakes. that is a method to help increase the amount of torque at the traction wheel. so increase the input to 2000ft-lbs and you are now sending almost 500ft-lbs to the traction wheel.

now, this is all best case and there are definite limits on design ranges - send 6000ft-lbs down the pike and you're not going to get 1500ft-lbs of torque transfer. it will likely just sit and spin and burn up clutches. but the principle is the same. different LSDs have differing torque biases, anywhere from 5:1 - 3:1. and as clutches wear, they lose torque holding ability.

now the only other animal that could be described as somewhere between an LSD and a locker is the Torsen LSD. this is the design basis of the TruTrac diff, originating from the design by [then] Zexel-Torsen. there are no spider gears; they use an arrangement of helical gear to both transmit and control torque thru the diff. there were a couple different biases based on the gear cuts used, but some (given enough input torque) would actually lock-up and trasmit 100%. we had one in our mini-forumula car out of an old subaru: while turning, the RPM difference between shafts was not enough to bind the gears, but lose all traction on one and it would lock up solid. these aren't made anymore (except for the TruTrac, which has a max bias of around 2.5:1 IIRC) and they were very expensive. but, the all-gear design made them very rugid, maintenance free, and extremely reliable.

so if i had to desire an LSD, i'd go w/ a TruTrac based on design and service life (infinite). but, i don't think i would given the selection and performance of lockers available today; especially the "lunchbox lockers" like the Soft Locker and the Gearless Locker - these two supposedly have great street maners and don't cost much, either. but for something like the deuce, the UltraLocker (an improved Detroit / No-Spin) is the no-brainer for reliability and performance. i drive mine [bob'd] on the street and rarely hear a peep out of it once i adapted my driving style. just for curiosity sake, i left the front hubs locked to see if i'd notice any binding while turning (without the front axle locked in) - never noticed anything. quite frankly, that surprised me the most. maybe because i have power steering?


diffs and traction aids are cool, and in some there's a lot of tech in them. ironically though, few have any "new" technology...
 
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