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M1007 - CUCV Suburban Clone Build Thread

Barrman

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I think the parts inside are different. DB2829 is how all 6.2 pump numbers start and the 29 is supposed to mean .29" plungers. DB2831 is how all 6.5 part numbers start. .31" plungers.

The pump on the last engine I picked up from you codes out as off a 1998 6.5 HMMWV. The pump on the Cowdog matches its 2005 engine. I haven't looked to see if the piston on the bottom of the pump is the same size between all the pumps. My thinking is that different sized tools might be needed for the 6.5 pump and they are all including the price of the tools in my quotes.

I turned the pump about 1/8" retarded Thursday evening. It was just on the retarded side of the line before. No start up differences, no idle differences and no sound differences. However, I now have 1-2 psi boost just loafing along at 40-50 mph which I haven't before. Same egt as before with no boost at that speed. About 18%-20% throttle now at that speed, just like before.

It needs to cool off some more before I make another run to see you Joe. I enjoy leaving here at 60° or so and getting to experience winter when I get to you around freezing 8 hours later.
 

Warthog

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Winter is here already. It was a cold 98 today....lol

Looking at this Standyne manual a DB2 is a DB2 even with different size plungers.
http://www.stanadyne.com/docs/misc/99009 DB2 Manual.PDF

DB2831
DB2, 8 cylinder, .31" plunger

I would think any shop would be able to work on it. Now the DB4 is indeed a different animal and cost much more.
 
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Barrman

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There is an old saying that I believe came from the RAF during the early days of the Battle of Britain: "Reduce the revs and boost the boost. You'll make it home to roost." Kind of a simple diddy to help young pilots stretch their fuel to get back alive.

I was reminded of that the other day. I posted above that I turned the ip retarded a bunch. Yet, there was no change in idle, sound or low speed performance. I did have a bit more boost at mid speeds though. Well, I did a bit more than a hundred miles at 75 mph the other day.

Before I had maybe 1 psi of boost and 400°-450° egt at 75 mph. Now, I had a steady 2 psi and a constant 650° egt at 75 mph. Up to 6 psi going up hills and a max of 900° at that boost. Engine coolant temps stayed about the same as before, maybe a bit lower for a 95° day.

This tank of fuel had a mix of 3 different ip settings, lots of idle time, a few hundred miles at 70-75. My basic normal driving. The last two tanks of similar driving had 14.6 and 14.7. This tank had 15.8 when I topped off yesterday. That is a significant increase for a partial tank with retarded timing.

That is why I was reminded of the old British saying. I didn't reduce the rpm any, but I did boost the boost and got better economy as a result. But, does what work for gasoline airplane engines equate to a healthy Diesel engine?
 

Commander5993

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Since the head gaskets for some reason on the GEP engine were blocking all water flow to the heads. The heads were warped as a result. The block is ok though. The replacement heads I have are the 60° intake bolt center turbo heads. Lots of research online convinced me the best way of making a NA intake fit the heads was to drill the intake mounts.

A 29/64 drill bit going straight down on a CUCV 6.2 intake sitting on its top makes the job not take very long. I have a set of rusted heads bolted to the 6500 for intake fitting purposes. Now that I know the intake will fit and the bolts will thread. I am pretty sure 7/16 wedge washers will work for the 11 short mounts. I haven't figured out how to do the 5 tall ones yet. Here are some pictures of the intake sitting on the block and one of the heads that will get used.
We also finished the intake manifold machine process. (A student with a file and a hack saw blade) Here is the finished product.
Hello Barrman! smiley_wave.gif

Just wanted to say Thank You for posting on how you were able to modify your Intake Manifold. [thumbzup][thumbzup][thumbzup]

I just had to replace the heads on our M1008, which has a 6.2L engine. The new heads I bought were for a 6.5L. The problem is the company that I bought them from sent me two different heads... one head with 60 degree intake bolt threads, and the other head with 90 degree intake bolt threads. Which I did not notice until I nearly had it all reassembled and I sit the intake on and saw something didn't look right... (if interested full info located on the 3rd page of my thread http://bit.ly/1986-M1008-head-replacement) At which time I initially thought that my only option would be to tear it all back down again, and change the head out for the correct one.

But SS member Ken (Tim) posted links to this thread, and your posts #88 and #170, where you explained and showed the photos on how you modded your intake manifold to fit. Which I think will be the solution to my problem. So it has given me some hope that I wont have to tear this all back apart. Done a lot of work to this truck when we first got it 6 years ago, but this has been a job to say the least.

I did want to ask, You mentioned something about a wedge washer...?? Did you end up having to use those, or were they not needed?
I assume you replaced the longer intake bolts with all shorter ones?, since you cut down the "tall" bolt hole ports?
Have you had any issues with your intake since you modded it?

Thanks Again!

PS- Nice MV Build by the Way, has a lot of great features. Sure wish our M1008 had A/C this summer... Like the spare tire carrier too!
 
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Barrman

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Fastenal has 30° wedge washers. I bought a pack of 20 or so for around $10 if I remember correctly a year later. I am pretty sure mine were the 5/8" hole ones. I used 2 wedge washers for the end holes and cut the taller middle holes down so they were flat. No washers needed.

I had 1974 miles on the truck when I pulled into work this morning. No issues with the intake manifold.

We actually needed longer bolts for the end holes and yes, shorter bolts for the middle ones.
 

Commander5993

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Fastenal has 30° wedge washers. I bought a pack of 20 or so for around $10 if I remember correctly a year later. I am pretty sure mine were the 5/8" hole ones. I used 2 wedge washers for the end holes and cut the taller middle holes down so they were flat. No washers needed.

I had 1974 miles on the truck when I pulled into work this morning. No issues with the intake manifold.

We actually needed longer bolts for the end holes and yes, shorter bolts for the middle ones.

Great, Thanks for the info Barrman!
 

Barrman

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The Cowdog is up to 3,000 miles now. I had an oil leak at the front of the engine that I traced back to the turbo oil return hose. I ended up buying a foot of the stuff online and just replacing what came with the Banks kit. Their instructions say it is a silicone 3/4" hose. But, the blue turbo oil return 3/4" silicone hose I bought feels different and hasn't leaked yet. Only needed about 2" to do the job.

I am only getting about 1500 miles to a quart of oil as well. Very high usage compared to all my other 6.2 engines. New CDR from the first start on this engine as well. I haven't figured that out yet. No smoke of any kind at any time. I did switch from a sealed oil fill cap to a vented one the other day and will see if that makes a difference.

I dropped the thrown rod GEP 6500 crank off at a local one man machine shop back in May and told him no hurry. I would stop by and visit every few weeks. He finally called last week. He had cut .030 and it still wasn't smooth. That will give me two bad 6.5 crankshafts. Any suggestions on what kind of decorative art I should make with them?

The machine shop though has a 1995 GM 6.5 with a busted starter mount boss on the block sitting in the corner. All the turbo stuff, serpentine stuff and exhaust cross over is there. The DS-4 IP is gone, but it was running he claims when the starter broke off. He just wants it gone from his floor so I will get that sometime soon. I won't know until I actually look at how bad the block is broken whether this will be a braze fix like the other 6.5 I got from Warthog or a crank shaft donor engine for the GEP block. I am thinking I need to mentally go into it as a crank shaft donor engine. Everything I have read about the early 6.5 blocks being bad compared to the GEP casting keeps flashing through my mind.

Through that machine shop though, I finally found a shop to rebuild a DB2 IP for a price I think is reasonable. I called them up two weeks ago and talked to the owner. I told him what I had and that I wanted a pump with 4911 specs for flow when all was done. He said no problem. They close at 5:00 and I get off work at 4:00 every other day. Apple maps calls it a 1:04 drive with no traffic.

I called again on the day I was planning to go. Two days before Harvey hit Texas. It is a father/son operation. I got the son. I had talked to the dad the first call. "We close at exactly 5:00, no exceptions." I had the Cowdog rolling and got there at 4:56. I drove that just so they could see what the pump was going in and my set up in case they needed, which they shouldn't. Plus, it is fun to drive. Anyway, I walked in with the IP from the broken crank GEP engine which numbers out as a 1998 6.5 NA pump. I carried a 12 volt top cover in with me. The son looks at the IP and just stares at the Packard electrical fitting. "What is this?" I tell him don't worry about it and say I want this cover on when you are done. Oh, ok. I then give him my contact information and say I want it to flow like a 4911 when done. He actually did a head tilt like a confused dog does.

I called last Thursday, a week after drop off, and got the son. "I told you we would contact you when it was ready." I tell him I was just calling to make sure things were going ok and if by chance it was done, I could come on Friday and pick it up. Otherwise it might be another week before I could get there. "Oh, well......there are some things on your pump I can't do without my boss here. He is stuck in Houston."

I don't know about everyone else, but this is the 4th or 5th good business run by a knowledgeable and honest person I have dealt with in the past few years that is just going to collapse when the idiot son takes over. Honest craftsmanship is slowly going away. Anyway, I will call again this week and hopefully the dad got out of Houston.

Some of you have been to my house. I have a 30' x 40' metal building I call my shop. When built 15 years ago, I welded up drill pipe shelves to fit around my current equipment and what I thought was waaaaaayyyyyy excessive storage capacity for future stuff. That was back when I only owned a M715 and the Mini. Before I even finished building the shelves, my grandfather died and I got all of his stuff. He owned a 5 bay vehicle repair facility in Houston for several decades. He never threw anything away. I just pilled his things anywhere they could fit thinking I would come back and organize later. I didn't. Colton got old enough to work on stuff, I repainted the Mini, took apart, redid and put the M35 Gasser together with a parts truck, several CUCV trucks, the Cowdog, etc....

I actually had 5 vehicles in there during a hail storm back in 2002. I can barely get 2 in there now. Colton went off to college last month and for the first time since built. I am the only person using the building and tools. I can organize like I want and be pretty sure where stuff is! I needed to start with tools. Between my stuff, my dads stuff, my grandfathers stuff and things I have picked up over the years. I was doing a lot of walking between tool storage areas to do some simple work a lot of times. I needed more tool storage capacity.

Not trying to start debates here. I wanted a 4-6 foot tool cabinet that was no more than waist high. New, there are a lot of places to get them for a lot of money. Only a few are US made though. They are a lot more money. Used brings things down to almost affordable. Yet, used really shows the difference in who made it and where. I have had Craftsman boxes of different sizes for years. But, they don't warranty the boxes if you can find a store these days. I started searching vintage Snap-On chest and roll cabs. Since they do warranty the slides and castors still. Ball bearings slides would be nice, but not at the price premium those things go for. I have survived on friction slides my entire life and can continue to do so. I narrowed it down to a pre-1988 Snap-On since that is when the ball bearings started showing up.

Lots of research and Craigslist looking narrowed things down even more. I wanted a "Taco Wagon". Officially, a KR562 Rolla-Bench. They were made for aviation uses. Spring suspension on the wheels, landing leg brake, tow bar hook up to be pulled behind an airport tug, solid rubber tires and the weirdest drawer layout I have ever seen. Some drawers on one side, some on the end and a cabinet on the back. Perfect if you are working in the middle of a hanger on a plane. Terrible if you put it up against a wall in a car repair place. That means they are cheap! My favorite.

When they came out around 1976, with the tow bar they looked like what people sold tacos out of in Mexico so that is how they got the name. I had found one at my price point before the hurricane. Then I got flood road blocked and the guy that had it was on an island for most of last week. I was able to go get it last Friday. Cowdog pulling a M101. Running the speed limit I topped off before I left and again when I got back. 16.01 mpg. I can handle that pulling the trailer.
 

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Another Ahab

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; I wanted a 4-6 foot tool cabinet that was no more than waist high.  New, there are a lot of places to get them for a lot of money.  Only a few are US made though.  They are a lot more money.  Used brings things down to almost affordable.  Yet, used really shows the difference in who made it and where.  I have had Craftsman boxes of different sizes for years.  But, they don't warranty the boxes if you can find a store these days.  I started searching vintage Snap-On chest and roll cabs.  Ball bearings slides would be nice, but not at the price premium those things go for.  I have survived on friction slides my entire life and can continue to do so.  I narrowed it down to a pre-1988 Snap On since that is when the ball bearings started showing up.

I'm so certified as a geezer that I can remember when "Kennedy" were the toolboxes to own, absolute top-of-the-line.

I could afford one at the time. So that was it. My one Kennedy open-top box in the brown wrinkle finish.

I don't know if they're even in business any longer. I"ll have to go look it up.

Craftsman used to be a line you could depend on, but don't know that I'd trust their line any longer what with all the changes they've had to go through to stay competitive.
 

Barrman

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The "boss" or rather dad/owner of the injection place called me last week. He apologized several times that it wasn't done yet. Then he asked me what I meant by "4911 settings" on the ip calibration. I explaned what I had and what it was in. He was kind of hesitant talking until then. Once he realized I wasn't some kid wanting to roll coal from a na engine he opened up. We bs'ed about engines, turbos and trucks for a while. He assured me all I would have to do was bolt it on and I would have the most power the ip could give.

I went to pick it up yesterday. We didn't know each other so when I walked in and introduced myself. He just said " oh yeah, the 6.5 guy." Never been called that before. We talked some more and he revealed he charged me $250 too little. He hadn't done any 6.2, 6.5, 6.9 or 7.3 pumps in a few years and didn't realize Stanadyne had drastically increased the price of the consumables that get replaced in a proper rebuild. I didn't like it, but offered to pay more. He said no, he gave me a price and that was what I would pay. He did say the next one would be more. If he is there when the next one needs done, it will go to him.

I have to drive 150 miles Sunday and would like to make that a test drive. So tonight I made sure I had all the pieces to do new 2200 psi pop injectors, return lines, ip and copper washers all ready to go. I should be able to get most if not all of the swap knocked out tomorrow night. Then spend Saturday finishing up and fine tuning.
 

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Warthog

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Those are some good looking injectors. ;-)

Too bad you weren't able to install all the goodies when the engine was out.
 

Barrman

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Thank you again for collecting such a good set of injectors Joe.
I agree about not being able to do all of this while I built the engine and truck up. However, I couldn't afford to. Plus, I now know more about the way a pump can go bad, ip timing and hopefully, will be able to say how much injectors and a worked over ip can make a difference.
 

Barrman

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I have done enough IP replacements that I really wasn't looking forward to the sore arms and shoulders that result from doing one arm pushups for a few hours. So I built up a nice thick row of seat cushions on the valence. It worked great. Except, now my ribs hurt. Oh well, the IP and injectors are swapped and the truck runs.

The old injectors were the normal black color with no oil on them. The glow plugs in the holes were the color of proper running gas engine spark plugs. Giving me the idea all is well inside the engine.

I got it all buttoned back up this morning and started. Right away, the engine sounded much less like a Power Stroke. Still kind of, but not near as much as before. I was really happy that I had no leaks of any kind at any of the injector lines. That makes this my first IP replacement without at least one.

I let it warm all the way up while I checked for leaks and such. I also had to recalibrate the TPS. Then I took it for a test drive. Cruise set at 65 mph and everything was pretty much the same as before. Just less diesel sound from the firewall. After about 10 miles I pulled over, checked everything again and then did a 70% throttle acceleration. WOW! I had a light black smoke roll out the tail pipe until I got over 2,300 rpm. Then it was just pure heat as I was pushed back in my seat seeing 8 psi of boost when I had never gotten over 6 psi before at any throttle. I was at 85 mph before I knew it. Totally different driving experience.

I ran a few errands in town and found the boost is addictive. I couldn't leave it alone when pulling out into traffic. This could be trouble for my fuel and tire budget. Once home, I checked it over again and then set about dialing the timing to where it should be.

Using the screw driver pushing the advance arm method. I got a sound change but no engine change. I had put the IP line exactly in line with the engine line when I installed it. I moved it just a bit to the passenger side to retard it some. Test and repeat, and repeat and repeat and repeat. I finally got a sound, idle and smoothness change. Which according to everything I have found. The closest you can get to timed without the hard to find special luminosity probe which isn't made anymore. I was real close to being out of room in the adjustment slots too. About 3/16 of an inch retarded. Idle actually went up 50 rpm from the initial setting to my final setting. No more tinny sound either. I will take it for another test drive in a bit. Then 150 mile highway drive tomorrow.

One thing I haven't figured out is an oil leak. I don't know where it is coming from. It seems to be just a fine misting all over the top and bottom of the engine. It is on the leaf springs too. Not really dripping, but there is oil leaking. I think it is the CDR valve and my not having all of the intake plumbing gorilla tight. I have oil inside the air filter box, plenum top and intake manifold. Until I took it all apart I was convinced it was just the valve covers. All the oil is below them with no oil directly under the valve covers. Maybe I wasn't getting more boost before because of leaks in the intake system. I got everything really tight this time. There is an almost drip forming on the lift pump mount plate, but that wouldn't put oil on the drivers side leaf spring.

I have read and read all I can about the oil in the intakes and CDR valves. Oil in the intake is normal, to a point. They made at least 4 different CDR valves of different styles. I have a 6.2 NA CUCV CDR. The turbo CDR valves have a different spring in them. I also think my daily drive is part of the problem. 5 mile total drive each way with no speed over 45 and 5 traffic lights. I never really get a lot of heat inside the engine with this short of a drive so slow. Then, a few times a week I jump on the highway and run 75 mph for at least 30 miles. This is also the same oil I fired the engine up with a year ago, have idled a huge amount getting things set up with and had the engine up to near 220 degrees with. I plan to change it this coming week now that the IP swap is done. Could just be over idled worn out oil.

I wiped everything down as best I could and will keep looking for a source.
 

Warthog

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Hey Tim, it's been a week and no updates on your Sunday trip. What is the verdict? :)
 

Barrman

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The drive went great over there. It attacked the hills with more power than before and did great running around town with Colton. But, since I had retarded the timing since the initial test drive I wrote about above. I didn't have the power I had on that one drive.

Then coming home in 93° temps it got over 210° coolant temp on the same long several mile long grade with hills and drops during the climb at 70 mph it did ever other time I have made that drive. I previously figured out that just dropping to 68 mph would get the coolant back down. It did again.

I decided the heck with what the ear timing test says. I would go back to having the lines lined up and forget about how much it sounds like a Power Stroke. I did that Monday. It sounds harsh compared to all my 6.2 engines but better than this truck did a week ago. I didn't leave town all week. Just back and forth to work.

But, I need to get the timing where it is supposed to be. Because even though the lines are lined up. It isn't the same as where it was on the first start up performance wise. That means I need to measure it. There are two ways:

Pulse pick up. Which is a device that clamps onto the number 1 injector line and then converts the pulse of the fluid inside the line to an electrical signal that a normal gasoline engine timing light can read and be used as if this were a gas engine. The trouble with this is the speed of combustion. Spark plug signals travel at he speed of light. Diesel lights on fire a bit slower. Not exactly as slow as the speed of smell, but close. General rule of thumb I have found is add what the timing light says plus 8°. Maybe.

Several months ago I wrote about the frustration of trying to get this way to work and give repeated results. I couldn't.

Luminosity probe. Snap-On made something called the MT480 way back when so the Oldsmobile line of Diesel engines could be timed accurately. The GM tech manual actually says to use the MT480 on the 6.2. Only to check cold advance and the retard lever function though. Both are supposed to be verified they change the timing 3°. GM doesn't say what the actual timing should be.

Ford actually made their own copy of the MT480 which will also work on the GM engines.

The MT480 has two probes. One called a magnetic pick up looked like a long screw driver and fits in the circular holder on the timing pointer above the harmonic balancer. This gives rpm.

Then there is the luminosity probe. It looks like a glow plug but is hollow with a lens inside. It goes in the glow plug hole. The flame of combustion can be seen through it. The MT480 "sees" combustion and records how far advanced or retarded it is compared to where the number one piston is.

Engine firing order and the slowness of diesel combustion means the probe actually goes into the number 3 glow plug hole since #3 is 90° behind #1. The meter has a setting for a 99.5° offset just for this and the magnetic probe holder being 9.5° from TDC.

That all sounds well and good. Except the MT480 hasn't been built in 25 years or so. The replacement was the MT1480. Same basic thing but digital display instead of analog gauges. It hasn't been made in 20 years or so either. Snap-On will sell you a new MT88 magnetic probe for close to $200.00 or a new MT160/161 luminosity probe for around the same price. But they won't sell or support the actual machines anymore.

That means only used ones are available. I have been looking all summer and have yet to see a MT480 or MT1480 with all the probes, claimed to be functional and at a price less than I paid for my turbo. Things changed this week.

I dont know why, but every so often I will be searching things on eBay and I land in eBay Japan. Japanese language and all. I have to log out and then back in again. It has been happening for years. Very frustrating. This week it helped me.

I found the usual assortment of untested meters with no probes. Then one with the magnetic probe for about nothing. While looking for either of the two luminosity probes that should work with a 6.2, MT160 or MT161 with no success. I got put into eBay England. They had a MT160 that wasn't showing up in the US searches. Again, almost nothing.

Now I just need to find an instruction manual. The other unknown condition stuff should show up next week. Then I will go on a timing frenzy. It it all works that is. If it does work, I have a lot of engines to get timed exactly.

I did change the oil in the engine Wednesday. Otherwise it is working great. Just trying to make everything as best I can.
 
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