M1008 Starter problems

[Commander5993]

got the cover off this morning. flywheel has a small amount of wear on front edge, but nothing unexpected. no broken teeth. so I think it's fine, Thankfully.

I finally bench tested the starter this morning. it spun about 50% of connection attempts. the pinion gear does not retract at all. and it makes a lot of rough sounding noise when spinning. so I'm pretty sure that's where my noise was coming from when i was able to get the truck to start.

since it doest retract, apparently the spring or other parts in the solenoid linkage is broke. noise may be from maybe bad bearing, OR maybe one of the motor magnets has came loose?? I don't think I'll bother taking it apart to find out.

 

[Commander5993]

off topic... can't find this listed in FAQs or threads. anyone know if the oil drain plug is a 1/2" - 20? need to replace seal thought I might look for a magnetic one.

 

[ezgn]

off topic... can't find this listed in FAQs or threads. anyone know if the oil drain plug is a 1/2" - 20? need to replace seal thought I might look for a magnetic one.

https://www.amazon.com/Dorman-69012...--3-2-141-99-5&vehicleName=1984+Chevrolet+K30

 

[Commander5993]

https://www.amazon.com/Dorman-69012...--3-2-141-99-5&vehicleName=1984+Chevrolet+K30

Thanks Ezgn. With all the metric on these engines, I didn't know if the oil plug was still the standard one or not.

 

[Commander5993]

Well I got the Wilson Starter, looks good. But I was disappointed that they didn't pack it better. The started got beat around during shipping hard enough to punch some holes in its box, even though this was inside an outer shipping box.

It has the test results label tag on it too, interesting at least.

I also got my new GM OEM Starter bolts, I ordered these according to the part number listed in the CUCV FAQ. But I was surprised that these are not flange bolts. And they are just about 1/4" shorter. I am wondering if I should add a washer so as not to gall up the aluminum starter housing and to spread the force out a bit.

Still waiting on bracket, but its supposed to be here sometime today.

 

[Commander5993]

well, answered myself on the question about adding a washer to the starter. TM shows one is supposed to be there.

TM also shows 33 ft lbs for torque.

Still trying to figure out how to measure pinion ring gear spacing to see if shims are needed.

 

[87cr250r]

Look from the starter nose where the solenoid attaches. It says "No Shim"

 

[Commander5993]

Look from the starter nose where the solenoid attaches. It says "No Shim"

I know the direct drive said this. I forgot to look at this one, it's on the truck but not tightened down yet. I'll try to look if I can see any text on it. I questioned this as I read in TM it talks about a shim may be required and how to measure gap between pinion and ring gear (between .2 and .6) with a wire style "feeler" gauge. I did find one in my tool box that covers at least part of the spec range.

 

[Commander5993]

just looked this starter and it does not have the "no shim" txt

 

[Commander5993]

Well, I got the starter back on and torqued down. hopefully it will work without any shims. If not I'm not sure how you are supposed to keep the pinion gear out and into the ring gear in order to measure the gap as it shows in the TM, to know what size shim it would need.

In any case, got some other work to do before I can try it and see. But I'm quitting for the night.

 

[Barrman]

You can remove the starter, remove the solenoid and then install the starter again. That will allow you to push the drive gear out by hand.

 

[87cr250r]

If you disconnect the starter positive (just lift the battery cable at battery) and put 24V directly to the solenoid signal terminal it will push the gear out without turning the starter.

 

[Commander5993]

just thought I would post something I found today that was interesting to me at least. I might have found the issue with my temperature light. I pulled out the temperature sensor / sending unit and found that it was not the same as the TS81 that I replaced it with. I didn't think to get a photo of both of them side by side before I installed the new one. But I've got a photo of the old one I pulled out, and a screen shot of the TS81 from Oreillys.

I had searched the TM for the Temp Sensor part number, which gave a GM number. Then I took the GM # and ran a search here on SS in the CUCV forum, and found that the replacement would be the TS81. Does this sound right??

Both are the same thread size and thread pitch and single blade connector. But are made different. Maybe just a different brand? Old design??
In any case, hope this fixes my temp light "glowing" immediately at cold start, and full brightness when engine is warm.

Also replaced the coolant level sensor, hope that stops the light from 'blinking' on and off sometimes and etc.
And I upgraded the thermostat from a 180f to the correct Murray 42995. Which by the way, was supposed to be (and is listed as being) a 195F, but on the thermostat itself it shows 88 Celsius, which converting to Fahrenheit would be 190F. Only 5 degrees, but it makes this thermostat only 10 degrees hotter than the 180F that was in it. I doubt it would matter, guess I'm just nitpicking.

I have some work on the battery cables to finish before I can try to start the truck, had a little corrosion trying to start in the wires before it went into the copper connectors. So I cut off the ends to get back to clean wire and redoing them. Should get that done tomorrow unless something comes up.

Hopefully the truck starts without issue and the starter doesn't need shims. If it does, then I think I'll try your method 87cr250r first, to measure the pinion gear and ring gear gap. I can remove the battery cable and just make a jumper wire to click the solenoid in like you were talking about. Of course I can only hold the solenoid on for a few seconds at a time, don't want to overheat it or anything.

If for some reason that doesn't work, then I guess I'll have to remove the starter and do it by hand like you said Barrman. But I really don't want to remove the starter again if I can keep from it...

In either case, if shims are needed I'll probably have to go buy a pack, as I may have a couple but not sure what thickness I may end up needing. Been a long time since I've needed any. HOPE I don't need them now.

 

[Commander5993]

Well, got the truck started today. Fired right up, no noise from the starter. Tried a few times today, and could hear the starter kickout as soon as I let off the key. So I guess there is no need for any shims. The "low coolant" light is also no longer flickering, and the coolant temperature light does not glow at startup or light up when engine is warm. So apparently both of those issues were bad sensors.

I let the truck run and come up to temp, could feel the upper coolant hose get warm and a little bit of steam was coming off the coolant sitting in the funnel, so the thermostat is opening and coolant circulating. I didn't see any more air bubbling up into the funnel, I can't remember what they are called but back a few years ago I bought one of those funnels that have adapters that connect where the radiator cap goes so you can burp the system while the engine is running and it lets more coolant in to replace it. I refilled the coolant yesterday, and just let it sit overnight with the funnel filled with coolant, seems like all the air is out but I'm still going to let it sit tonight in case any more air comes out as the engine goes back to cold.

BUT Now... the alternator #2 light is flickering. Its done this for sometime, but only at start up. I figured the belt was "cold" as it would quit after a couple minutes. But in the last couple months, I had noticed a slight squealing noise at times, figured it might be a bearing. Now that squealing is much worse and the light continues to flicker even after engine is fully warm. If I rev up the engine it will stop flickering and the squealing seems to go away, but both return at idle . I guess a bearing could eventually put enough drag on the alternator to pull the voltage down and trigger the light??

The thing is I'm not certain that the squealing is coming from one of the alternators. I tried listening from both sides of the truck, but I'm not sure. I don't have a mechanics stethoscope to pinpoint it. The alternator case by the upper radiator hose did feel slightly warmer than the other one, and I don't think the heat was coming from the hose as it was barely warm at the time.

I'll have to look up to see which is Alt #1 and Alt #2. Hate to replace an alternator and it not be the issue. I could rebuild it, but never done that before either but I'm sure there are threads about that here in the forums.

I also wonder if it could be something else running on the same belt that is going bad and slowing the belt enough to trigger the alt 2 light. I sure hope its not the water pump. Anyone have any input?

Thanks All

 

[LT67]

If you want a gear reduction starter you want a Delco 28MT starter. OEM pad mount units aren't the easiest to find but the pad mount nose is available for tens of dollars which let's you convert any starter. The 28MT starters are very strong.

The hardest part about changing a starer is disconnecting the wiring at the solenoid. If you had difficulty fitting the starters between the engine and frame perhaps you need new motor mounts. The parts store mounts are garbage, get the right units in polyurethane from Energy Suspension or your other favorite manufacturer.

I had my 27MT rebuilt by a reputable shop and still had issues with it. I finally gave up and had the shop that rebuilt my 27MT order a brand new 28Mt. It doesn't turn the engine over as fast as the 27MT, but it works every time..

 

[roscoepcoltraine]

Gen1 is the Driver's side alternator. Gen2 is the passenger side one (the one apparently at issue in your truck).
You could of course put a voltmeter between the pos and neg terminals on your passenger side alternator with the engine running, and see if it is putting out what a healthy alternator should (either 14.2+ or so, or 28.4+ or so if 24 volt system, I think).
But, I don't know about answering the other question you are asking, ie, could something else (like a binding-up water pump run by the same belt) keep that alternator from producing full voltage? Sorry that I don't know about that. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable guys will chime in on that one...

 

[roscoepcoltraine]

The way I remember which alternator goes with which Gen light is, the Gen lights are on the same side of the truck as their corresponding alternator (ie, Gen1 light is to the left/driver's side on the dash, it goes with the left/driver's side alternator. Relative to Gen1, Gen2 is to the right/towards passenger's side and so it goes with the right/passenger side alternator.)

 

[roscoepcoltraine]

One more thing, in case it helps you:
This is a good video (done by a helpful SS member) showing how to check CUCV alternators for proper output.

 

[Commander5993]

I had my 27MT rebuilt by a reputable shop and still had issues with it. I finally gave up and had the shop that rebuilt my 27MT order a brand new 28Mt. It doesn't turn the engine over as fast as the 27MT, but it works every time..

I couldn't find a new one, but I bought a Wilson which is their remanufactured Delco brand 28MT. Looks like a very good built unit, and it wasn't quite as heavy as the Direct Drive. Still pretty heavy though. Hope it will last as long as I need it.

 

[Commander5993]

Gen1 is the Driver's side alternator. Gen2 is the passenger side one (the one apparently at issue in your truck).
You could of course put a voltmeter between the pos and neg terminals on your passenger side alternator with the engine running, and see if it is putting out what a healthy alternator should (either 14.2+ or so, or 28.4+ or so if 24 volt system, I think).
But, I don't know about answering the other question you are asking, ie, could something else (like a binding-up water pump run by the same belt) keep that alternator from producing full voltage? Sorry that I don't know about that. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable guys will chime in on that one...

Yes, this is still the stock 24v system. I found a thread on here about testing it, but the video will be a big help. Thanks

The way I remember which alternator goes with which Gen light is, the Gen lights are on the same side of the truck as their corresponding alternator (ie, Gen1 light is to the left/driver's side on the dash, it goes with the left/driver's side alternator. Relative to Gen1, Gen2 is to the right/towards passenger's side and so it goes with the right/passenger side alternator.)

Thats Great! I'll never forget it again with that trick