MEP-002A, will Start, Run then dies....any suggestions?

[Scoobyshep]

Okay...short version; Found the "PC" mark and its hash mark, turned the flywheel so the timing pointer was on the "PC" hashmark, 1/8" bit moves freely in and out of the IP's timing port and alignment hole of the face gear...Done. Ready to remove...YES??

Longer version:
I put an 1/8" bit into the timing hole on the side of the (still mounted) IP and began slowly turning the flywheel while applying lite pressure to the bit until I could feel the bit drop into the face gear...I look into the timing port on side of flywheel housing and nothing, no "PC" mark just rust. I put a Sharpie mark on flywheel at the pointer and repeated the process. This time when the bit dropped it the face gear, I looked into the timing port and could see the Sharpie mark was just below the pointer and while shining a flashlight at varying angle I caught a glimpse of a C. With some careful, light scraping of the rust using the flat bottom edge of a screwdriver, Carb clean and compressed air I was able to clean it enough to clearly see the "PC" mark and corresponding yellow hash mark...BINGO!...I also added a mark with a silver, oil based, paint pen on the left side of the P and in line with the "PC" hash mark to hopefully make it easier to find in the future.

Next, just to confirm, I removed the drill bit, turn the flywheel, then repeated the above process and the drill bit dropped into the face gear hole at or about the corresponding "PC" mark on the flywheel. With the drill bit still in the face gear I very slightly and very gentle moved the flywheel clockwise and counter and noticed the dill bit would start to tighten up about 1½ to 2 hash marks below the "PC" hash mark and about 1 to 1½ hash marks above the "PC" hash mark...I'm guessing that these "spaces" above and below the "PC" mark account for the "slightly opening-fully opened-slightly closed-fully closed" positions of the output valve of the IP...again just my guess. You guys feel free to correct me and/or elaborate.
View attachment 939545 View attachment 939546 View attachment 939548
So, that's it thus far. I will pull the IP tomorrow afternoon unless I hear from you guys to the contrary.

The additional hash marks are for timing the button with the flow method those tell you how many button sizes you need to go bigger or smaller. Sounds like you found the timing groove in the gear so yes you are ready to remove it

 

[1FAST4]

So, here's what I got done today along with some Pic's and a couple of questions:


First look at IP.


First look at Injector Nozzles.


Nozzle holders.


Cam lobe position. Three shims...not just one, this normal?


Nozzles lightly cleaned with some Diesel. I don't see items 7, 8 or 9 as shown in the TM, I'm I missing them?



Let me know your guy's thoughts on the Shims and missing...or not missing items for the nozzles.

The aluminum "Fin" adapter that goes on the Nozzle must be corroded because I can't get them off the nozzles, soaked them with Knocker Loose Plus and we'll see how they do tomorrow; they'll turn slightly mounted in the vise and tapped with a Dead Blow (lightly and not on the fins).

I'm going to try to get into the IP this weekend.

 

[Scoobyshep]

Shims are dependent on the block. I've had one or 2 that has had more than 1 shim.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

 

[1FAST4]

Ok good,,,any thoughts on the missing Nozzle/Holder items?

 

[Ray70]

Cam lobe is correctly positioned at PC on #1 compression stroke.
As for the "missing items" you aren't missing them, I believe they are still inside the head.
The 3 parts are a large dia., thin copper ring, then a 3/16" thick steel disc, then a thin fiber sealing washer.
The copper rings and steel discs are probably stuck in the head still, while the fiber washer may have torn apart and is now partially stuck to the injector and partially stuck to the steel disc that is still in the head.
These parts can be purchased as a kit or individually. the PN's are listed in the -24P TM

On the injector heat sinks, they tend to get frozen onto the injector body quite often.
I use a MAPP gas torch to heat the finned heat sink and expand it, then get a screwdriver between the heat sink and injector body to pry it off.
heat + penetrating oil can help too.

 

[1FAST4]

Cam lobe is correctly positioned at PC on #1 compression stroke.
As for the "missing items" you aren't missing them, I believe they are still inside the head.
The 3 parts are a large dia., thin copper ring, then a 3/16" thick steel disc, then a thin fiber sealing washer.
The copper rings and steel discs are probably stuck in the head still, while the fiber washer may have torn apart and is now partially stuck to the injector and partially stuck to the steel disc that is still in the head.
These parts can be purchased as a kit or individually. the PN's are listed in the -24P TM

On the injector heat sinks, they tend to get frozen onto the injector body quite often.
I use a MAPP gas torch to heat the finned heat sink and expand it, then get a screwdriver between the heat sink and injector body to pry it off.
heat + penetrating oil can help too.

Should I try to get the Copper Ring and Disc out? Or just leave them and clean the surface of the Disc the best I can; from the looks of the corrosion, I think it may be a quite a chore to get them out. Fiber washers already ordered direct from Cummins, $6 each and no gouging on the shipping cost.

Used your Heat, Penetrating oil and screwdriver method and the finned heat sinks came right off...many thanks!!! I then cleaned the nozzle/holder up with some Diesel and had them tested a local Diesel Nozzle/IP shop; Tech said they both tested fine and where in good shape.

Next post will be about tearing into the IP today and what I see...

 

[Scoobyshep]

Should I try to get the Copper Ring and Disc out? Or just leave them and clean the surface of the Disc the best I can; from the looks of the corrosion, I think it may be a quite a chore to get them out. Fiber washers already ordered direct from Cummins, $6 each and no gouging on the shipping cost.

Used your Heat, Penetrating oil and screwdriver method and the finned heat sinks came right off...many thanks!!! I then cleaned the nozzle/holder up with some Diesel and had them tested a local Diesel Nozzle/IP shop; Tech said they both tested fine and where in good shape.

Next post will be about tearing into the IP today and what I see...

id let that sleeping dog lie

 

[1FAST4]

So today, following the "Ambac 50 Service Instructions" I disassemble the IP and put it in the mounting fixture that I fab'd. Here are some Pic's and a few questions:

Control unit:
Had some staining but overall looked good.



Delivery Valve:
After removal I saw some debris at the bottom but think it was stuck to the rim of the valve assemble and broke free as I was pulling everything out; But one thing that I'm NOT seeing is the "Delivery Valve Spacer". Item #35 on Pg 2 of the Service Instructions. Is it there and I'm just not seeing it?


Hydraulic Head:
Remove the Button, Plunger Retaining Rings (easy with Ray70's C-clamp tool) and pulled everything out and what did I see?...Wait for it... the Plunger Guide was cracked. When I went to remove Gear Retainer and Face Gear the whole thing came apart and the Plunger Guide fell out, not just cracked but completely broken into two pieces...Hum, you guys think this could be the problem?


The Plunger had some slight marring where the Plunger Guide would normally rest but otherwise looked great and moved freely up and down into the head and Metering Sleeve. What is the correct orientation of the Plunger when reassembling? Or is it automatically orientated with the Plunger Guide? I wasn't paying attention to either when I removed them...


Same orientation question on the Metering Sleeve..."Dot" facing up or down, towards the Blower or away from it?


Everything is now soaking in Acitone...I ordered a gasket "rebuild" kit (KT85166) and Plunger Guide from GMG last week in anticipation; should be here next week, hopefully,

So, that's all I got for now...look forward to hearing what you guys think.

 

[Scoobyshep]

Having the plunger guide broken can cause your issue. Normally they just stop working but they can randomly run like crap.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

 

[Ray70]

The delivery valve spacer is there,,,, barely! The blackish remnant of a paper thin plastic ring you see on the delivery valve holder is the spacer!
It is a very thin useless piece of $50 plastic that simply helps hold the delivery valve in place while assembling the IP. It is helpful when working on an IP while mounted to the motor, but when working vertically in a vise it it totally useless and a waste of $50 for a new one.
I would just clean out the pieces and forget about it!

 

[Ray70]

The plunger guide will set the orientation of the plunger. The guide only goes on in 1 orientation ( plunger has 3 flat sides and 1 curved side ) and the guide is marked which face goes up. Same with the metering sleeve. goes in with the dot facing up. By UP they mean towards the tip of the plunger ( see figure 6A in the Ambac manual )

 

[Dog Breath]

I am having the same issue with an 002. It will run for 30 seconds or so and then it shuts off with white smoke. Shut off solenoid is not shutting it down so it must be fuel related. I cleaned ip, check valves in fuel pumps, inline check valves and all lines I am thinking maybe a piece of junk is blocking somewhere.

 

[rickf]

We will know if this is the issue when he gets it back together and installed. I am hoping this is a fix and then I have direction for mine.

 

[1FAST4]

The plunger guide will set the orientation of the plunger. The guide only goes on in 1 orientation ( plunger has 3 flat sides and 1 curved side ) and the guide is marked which face goes up. Same with the metering sleeve. goes in with the dot facing up. By UP they mean towards the tip of the plunger ( see figure 6A in the Ambac manual )

Sorry, I hadn't made it to the "Reassembly" section until after your Post; I then read it and it is explained very well (read the Manual, read the Manual...).


I do have two follow up questions:
Paragraph 4 and Figure 6A shows and explains the proper orientation of the Metering Sleeve being inserted from the left side of the Hydraulic Head but does not say how or show any "landmarks" on the drawing indicating what orientation the Head should be in before inserting the Metering Sleeve...or does it even matter? ...see the below Pic.


Figure 7 show a "Face Gear Linemark" on the Face Gear; mine does not have that mark or any other marks on the Face Gear. Does that matter?

 

[Ray70]

The orientation of the head before inserting the metering sleeve does not matter. The sleeve just slides up and down on the plunger by way of the throttle assembly's pin. As long as the dot is facing up, nothing else matters.

On the gear line mark, all you need to do is put the plunger guide with the marked face upward and the point on the side of the plunger guide aligned with the small cut out in the gear ( it only fits in this orientation ) and the plunger will only fit into the plunger guide in one orientation.

 

[1FAST4]

The orientation of the head before inserting the metering sleeve does not matter. The sleeve just slides up and down on the plunger by way of the throttle assembly's pin. As long as the dot is facing up, nothing else matters.

On the gear line mark, all you need to do is put the plunger guide with the marked face upward and the point on the side of the plunger guide aligned with the small cut out in the gear ( it only fits in this orientation ) and the plunger will only fit into the plunger guide in one orientation.

Perfect....Thanks Ray!!!!