MEP 803A Home Backup Wiring/Cleaning

[Louis9113]

Hi,
First, than you for this forum. I recently got a gen set for home backup. I realized every situation is different but thought I would share my route for others and hopefully have others chime in with their experience/advise also. I have searched a lot and have come up short on experiences wiring these things into a home with a normal 200 amp service. 2007 unit with about 2100 hrs.

I plan to use an interlock and 60 amp breaker from my outside meter combo, run about 85’ of 2 AWG NM-B through the attic to behind the carport where there is a pad and also, the sound will be deflected a little.
.
I believe I would rather not have it hard wired in all the time so I plan on adding a 60 amp pin and sleeve receptacle (auction site)

I haven’t gotten everything together yet but…
1). Should I use a 3 pole 60 amp disconnect next to the gen set?
2) If I skip the interlock, is there a way to legally come out of a meter combo and install a 200 amp transfer switch?
3) Other than Simple Green cleaner, are there any tips/tricks to cleaning the inside of one of these? I think leaky fuel lines had been changed before I got it and it had a sloppy oil change or two.
4) I’d appreciate any “pro” tips on wiring if it looks like I’m about to goof here.

Thanks!
(PS, my dad is looking for a clean 803 within a day’s drive of Louisiana if you know of one).

I forgot to add, I could not afford the $600 for Optima batteries so I went with group 51 interstate batteries

 

[Coug]

I can't tell you what your local regulations/codes are, so the below is just general information.

1) you should only have to disconnect the hot lines, not the neutral, so 2 pole is usually sufficient.

2) Yes, you can do do a transfer switch between the utility meter and your electrical panel. It will need to be service entry rated. (definitely check with an electrician, and you will likely need a permit for this, as well as the utility company to disconnect your power for the duration of the install)

3)any good quality degreaser should work. You do want to be careful though to keep water and chemicals away from any of the electrical components and the gen head. And honestly, as long as you aren't talking a thick layer of oil and dirt, a little bit of oil coating the engine and other metals inside isn't necessarily an issue, as it will help protect the metal.
If using simple green I prefer the Simple Green Extreme. Not sure if it's really any better or worse for this application.



As for anything else, always check your local codes and regulations. In some places if it's hardwired, even if that wiring only takes a couple minutes to install, it would still be subjected to permitting for installation, where having a plug like above does not require a permit.

 

[rcamacho]

I have a thread on connecting a MEP-802a. In my case I used an interlock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[reallybigboat]

Here is my $.02 worth:

1.) I hired electricians to install my manual transfer switch. My transfer switch is a 200 amp, Square D, double throw in a type 3R rainproof enclosure, Catalog number DTU-224-NRB. This switch only makes/breaks the two hot feeds. It's a big switch, attached externally to my house, adjacent to my the electric meter. As Coug mentions above, no need to switch the neutral. BTW, the neutral is bonded to the ground inside my breaker panel, as it should be in most homes. I hired electricians to install the transfer switch, so that everything was installed to code, and they had the correct tool to heat and bend the PVC conduit between the meter and transfer switch. I also wanted a 'whole house' transfer switch, thereby powering anything in the house or shop, just as utility power does.

2.) To answer your question above, this is a way to 'legally' come out of the meter box and install a transfer switch. Basically, one side of the transfer switch is feed by utility power (through the meter), and when switched, the other side is fed by the generator (obviously by passes the meter). There is no way to back-feed the utility power. The Square D enclosure and switch are lockable for safety reasons. I lock both the enclosure and switch handle.

3.) My process is very manual to power the house and shop from my generator, but that's okay. I hard wired in 50' of 2 awg / 4 conductor cable to my MEP-005a. After moving the MEP-005a into place with my tractor, I unstring the cable, then plug into the house with Hubble 4100 series connectors, the male side of which is hard wired into the generator side of the Square D transfer switch. I guess many people would not like this manual process to power the house, but to each their own. 'Kind of a "simple reliability" set-up, with not much to go wrong. The other benefit of this installation, is that it allows me to change out generators very quickly. Over time, I've upsized generators from 5 to 10 to my current 30kW easily. Additionally, I have other back-up generators ready to go, in case my MEP-005a quits. 'Just change the 2 awg / 4 conductor wires over to the new genset, if needed, assuming the replacement genset is 240 volt. single phase.

4.) This installation saved us during the big Texas cold weather event in February, 2021. I powered the house for over 50 hours while temps were in the teens and single digits. I kept the house at a comfortable 72 degrees, with no frozen or broken water pipes, unlike all of our neighbors. Additionally, I have the generator in place and plugged in three times this year, just in case the power goes out.

5.) It sounds as though you are on the right track with your thinking. I'm happy to send you pics if that would help (not on my computer, otherwise I would post here). Best of luck!

Steve

 

[Louis9113]

Here is my $.02 worth:

1.) I hired electricians to install my manual transfer switch. My transfer switch is a 200 amp, Square D, double throw in a type 3R rainproof enclosure, Catalog number DTU-224-NRB. This switch only makes/breaks the two hot feeds. It's a big switch, attached externally to my house, adjacent to my the electric meter. As Coug mentions above, no need to switch the neutral. BTW, the neutral is bonded to the ground inside my breaker panel, as it should be in most homes. I hired electricians to install the transfer switch, so that everything was installed to code, and they had the correct tool to heat and bend the PVC conduit between the meter and transfer switch. I also wanted a 'whole house' transfer switch, thereby powering anything in the house or shop, just as utility power does.

2.) To answer your question above, this is a way to 'legally' come out of the meter box and install a transfer switch. Basically, one side of the transfer switch is feed by utility power (through the meter), and when switched, the other side is fed by the generator (obviously by passes the meter). There is no way to back-feed the utility power. The Square D enclosure and switch are lockable for safety reasons. I lock both the enclosure and switch handle.

3.) My process is very manual to power the house and shop from my generator, but that's okay. I hard wired in 50' of 2 awg / 4 conductor cable to my MEP-005a. After moving the MEP-005a into place with my tractor, I unstring the cable, then plug into the house with Hubble 4100 series connectors, the male side of which is hard wired into the generator side of the Square D transfer switch. I guess many people would not like this manual process to power the house, but to each their own. 'Kind of a "simple reliability" set-up, with not much to go wrong. The other benefit of this installation, is that it allows me to change out generators very quickly. Over time, I've upsized generators from 5 to 10 to my current 30kW easily. Additionally, I have other back-up generators ready to go, in case my MEP-005a quits. 'Just change the 2 awg / 4 conductor wires over to the new genset, if needed, assuming the replacement genset is 240 volt. single phase.

4.) This installation saved us during the big Texas cold weather event in February, 2021. I powered the house for over 50 hours while temps were in the teens and single digits. I kept the house at a comfortable 72 degrees, with no frozen or broken water pipes, unlike all of our neighbors. Additionally, I have the generator in place and plugged in three times this year, just in case the power goes out.

5.) It sounds as though you are on the right track with your thinking. I'm happy to send you pics if that would help (not on my computer, otherwise I would post here). Best of luck!

Steve

I have a 200 amp double throw but I would be coming out of a meter combo instead of a straight meter pan. I had an electrician come and look but I believe it is illegal to modify the meter combo to put in a TS (transfer switch).

I am in rural central Louisiana so we are out of power a few times a year.


Even if it was legal to modify this meter combo, I don’t think there is physically enough room to interrupt the feed between the meter and the 200 main disconnect in the above pic. My 200 amp panel inside is fed by the two big black wires at the bottom.

I guess if I won the lottery I could have it required, meter, double throw, then small panel for these few breakers that had to go outside (inside panel was full).

 

[nextalcupfan]

I had electricians come in and install a Generac 200amp Automatic Transfer Switch.

Connection to the generator is a 6awg sjoow cable going directly to the terminal board.
I thought about a connector but considering how much they cost and how infrequently I would be disconnecting it it just wasn't worth it. (This hasn't been disconnected since it was installed Jan 2020)

I then figured out a way to monitor the incoming power, automatically start the generator and swap the ATS over to it.
It then continues monitoring for the power to come back and once it does for 2min straight it switches everything back over to mains power and shuts down the generator.

 

[Mullaney]

One item worthy of consideration is your need to disconnect the supply service - from the meter side - so that you aren't powering the entire grid with the power that you are generating. You don't want to electrocute the local power provider's employees as they attempt to rebuild the failed infrastructure. Please consider that possibility as you build your switching circuitry. Especially if you "do it on your own" rather than hiring an electrician.

 

[Coug]

So there is a product that would make this somewhat easy, but is rated for generators 10kw or less (the 803 is actually a 12k gen that's been derated for military use)
Generlink MA24 transfer switch plugs into the power meter, between the meter assembly and the base. Doesn't require any modifications to your lines, and takes all of 10 minutes for someone from your utility company to install. picture below.

I've been looking around and everywhere I see says unavailable right now.



I have no experience with these, and according to the company website it isn't legal in my state or Cali, but most states it is fine, so you'd want to check with your utility company if you went this route.

GenerLink, Backup Generator | Global Power Products

Lots of positive reviews at homedepot

GenerLink 40 Amp Meter Mounted Transfer Switch with 75kA Per Phase Surge Protection MA24-S - The Home Depot

The GenerLink is a plug and play transfer switch that gives the homeowner the ability to use anything in their electrical panel up to the capacity of the generator. The GenerLink is UL listed and is a

www.homedepot.com

 

[chucky]

Have i been looking at this wrong ? We have had long outages years ago from ice and other things. So i built a mobile trailer with a 20 kw kubota genset that i plug into my 60 amp plug on the wall for my welder in the shop. Then backfeed to the main house panel and i just flip the main breaker off from the pole to the house and that stops any chance of back feeding the grid . Then when i see lights come on in the neighborhood i shut down the generator and flip the main back on to the house from the pole !

 

[nextalcupfan]

Have i been looking at this wrong ? We have had long outages years ago from ice and other things. So i built a mobile trailer with a 20 kw kubota genset that i plug into my 60 amp plug on the wall for my welder in the shop. Then backfeed to the main house panel and i just flip the main breaker off from the pole to the house and that stops any chance of back feeding the grid . Then when i see lights come on in the neighborhood i shut down the generator and flip the main back on to the house from the pole !

If my understanding is correct this is 100% illegal.
I believe if my power company caught me doing this they would pull out my meter until a proper solution had been installed and verified by a licensed electrician.

 

[Louis9113]

One item worthy of consideration is your need to disconnect the supply service - from the meter side - so that you aren't powering the entire grid with the power that you are generating. You don't want to electrocute the local power provider's employees as they attempt to rebuild the failed infrastructure. Please consider that possibility as you build your switching circuitry. Especially if you "do it on your own" rather than hiring an electrician.

Absolutely, at minimum I will move some breakers around and have an interlock.

 

[Mullaney]

Have i been looking at this wrong ? We have had long outages years ago from ice and other things. So i built a mobile trailer with a 20 kw kubota genset that i plug into my 60 amp plug on the wall for my welder in the shop. Then backfeed to the main house panel and i just flip the main breaker off from the pole to the house and that stops any chance of back feeding the grid . Then when i see lights come on in the neighborhood i shut down the generator and flip the main back on to the house from the pole !

.
I have not read the electrical code book in more than 40 years, so I am not the "guy with the ultimate answer" but my guess is that manual step - where you disconnect from the grid - then start your generator is where there is concern. Backfeeding into the grid is what ends up killing linemen. Yeah, you won't but there are a lot of people who forgot that step. and ended up electrocuting somebody.

IMO, most of the rules in the code book were added because somebody did something wrong or needed to be protected from themselves.

 

[Coug]

Have i been looking at this wrong ? We have had long outages years ago from ice and other things. So i built a mobile trailer with a 20 kw kubota genset that i plug into my 60 amp plug on the wall for my welder in the shop. Then backfeed to the main house panel and i just flip the main breaker off from the pole to the house and that stops any chance of back feeding the grid . Then when i see lights come on in the neighborhood i shut down the generator and flip the main back on to the house from the pole !

yes, you have.
You are obviously taking the proper precautions so far in that you've disabled your main breaker, but that doesn't make what you are doing correct.

backfeeding is illegal. I know of no jurisdiction in the U.S. where it is legal.

Linemen HAVE been killed because of it. There are multiple articles out there about linemen who have been killed because someone decided to backfeed their house, and didn't disable the main breaker.

your 20k generator is also oversized for the circuit. Not a major issue if all the wiring is the correct size, but if it isn't then there is a risk of overloading the wires. 60 amp is 14.4kw, so unless you have a 60 amp breaker on the generator before feeding it into the welder outlet you have too much potential power for the wiring, even with a 60 amp breaker on the other end of it. (not to mention the outlet and plug are only rated for 60 amps)


The minimum safe level is an interlock. Unfortunately with your setup that isn't really an option, as you're backfeeding from a subpanel to the main panel in the house.
Not sure how far from the house your shop is, but in your situation a manual transfer switch between your meter and your main panel would be the correct solution for a 20k gen.

 

[chucky]

yes, you have.
You are obviously taking the proper precautions so far in that you've disabled your main breaker, but that doesn't make what you are doing correct.

backfeeding is illegal. I know of no jurisdiction in the U.S. where it is legal.

Linemen HAVE been killed because of it. There are multiple articles out there about linemen who have been killed because someone decided to backfeed their house, and didn't disable the main breaker.

your 20k generator is also oversized for the circuit. Not a major issue if all the wiring is the correct size, but if it isn't then there is a risk of overloading the wires. 60 amp is 14.4kw, so unless you have a 60 amp breaker on the generator before feeding it into the welder outlet you have too much potential power for the wiring, even with a 60 amp breaker on the other end of it. (not to mention the outlet and plug are only rated for 60 amps)


The minimum safe level is an interlock. Unfortunately with your setup that isn't really an option, as you're backfeeding from a subpanel to the main panel in the house.
Not sure how far from the house your shop is, but in your situation a manual transfer switch between your meter and your main panel would be the correct solution for a 20k gen.

Thanks for all the great info ! The last outage over an hour was for a week back in 93 when the ice tore alot of cables down so having to power the house via generator doesnt come along too often and my panels have a key lock along with the generator key switch and a red tag for each so im the only person that can power up or down the panels and my good friend that set up the whole build is a 35yr of service retired union electrician . We built the gen trailer to be able to go to either one of our houses to power in worse case senario and 50 ft of 6/4 so cable to tie direct to the main lugs in panel and flip the main off and tag it or pull the main completely out of the panel if need be but keep folks warm or cool till things get fixed . So long story short owning a generator is like owning a gun so treated with respect and operated responsibly thing should go great and if they they need to write me a ticket for keeping my family warm . GET TO WRITING !

 

[Mullaney]

Thanks for all the great info ! The last outage over an hour was for a week back in 93 when the ice tore alot of cables down so having to power the house via generator doesnt come along too often and my panels have a key lock along with the generator key switch and a red tag for each so im the only person that can power up or down the panels and my good friend that set up the whole build is a 35yr of service retired union electrician . We built the gen trailer to be able to go to either one of our houses to power in worse case senario and 50 ft of 6/4 so cable to tie direct to the main lugs in panel and flip the main off and tag it or pull the main completely out of the panel if need be but keep folks warm or cool till things get fixed . So long story short owning a generator is like owning a gun so treated with respect and operated responsibly thing should go great and if they they need to write me a ticket for keeping my family warm . GET TO WRITING !

.
@chucky I like the part about responsibility...
Definitely adds up to what most folks need to do in most cases!

 

[Coug]

Thanks for all the great info ! The last outage over an hour was for a week back in 93 when the ice tore alot of cables down so having to power the house via generator doesnt come along too often and my panels have a key lock along with the generator key switch and a red tag for each so im the only person that can power up or down the panels and my good friend that set up the whole build is a 35yr of service retired union electrician . We built the gen trailer to be able to go to either one of our houses to power in worse case senario and 50 ft of 6/4 so cable to tie direct to the main lugs in panel and flip the main off and tag it or pull the main completely out of the panel if need be but keep folks warm or cool till things get fixed . So long story short owning a generator is like owning a gun so treated with respect and operated responsibly thing should go great and if they they need to write me a ticket for keeping my family warm . GET TO WRITING !

You definitely know what you are doing.

Unfortunately most laws are written to deal with the id10ts among us, not people like you who actually understand what's going on.
It works for you, so good on ya, but my public stance in an open forum is always going to be follow the laws and regulations, even if I don't necessarily agree with them in all situations.

 

[jamawieb]

Hi,
First, than you for this forum. I recently got a gen set for home backup. I realized every situation is different but thought I would share my route for others and hopefully have others chime in with their experience/advise also. I have searched a lot and have come up short on experiences wiring these things into a home with a normal 200 amp service. 2007 unit with about 2100 hrs.
View attachment 860765
I plan to use an interlock and 60 amp breaker from my outside meter combo, run about 85’ of 2 AWG NM-B through the attic to behind the carport where there is a pad and also, the sound will be deflected a little.
.View attachment 860766View attachment 860767View attachment 860768
I believe I would rather not have it hard wired in all the time so I plan on adding a 60 amp pin and sleeve receptacle (auction site)
View attachment 860769
I haven’t gotten everything together yet but…
1). Should I use a 3 pole 60 amp disconnect next to the gen set?
2) If I skip the interlock, is there a way to legally come out of a meter combo and install a 200 amp transfer switch?
3) Other than Simple Green cleaner, are there any tips/tricks to cleaning the inside of one of these? I think leaky fuel lines had been changed before I got it and it had a sloppy oil change or two.
4) I’d appreciate any “pro” tips on wiring if it looks like I’m about to goof here.

Thanks!
(PS, my dad is looking for a clean 803 within a day’s drive of Louisiana if you know of one).

I forgot to add, I could not afford the $600 for Optima batteries so I went with group 51 interstate batteries
View attachment 860798

On your battery tray, you can buy 10inch hold downs and then use a piece of angle iron for a hold down so you dont have to use the wood.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Also, like the analogy to owning guns, there is some liability involved regardless of "our safe handling". Back feed via a dryer plug or whatever is often referred to as a "Suicide Connection" for reason. If someone (guest, first responder, etc.) were to come along and in a panic situation they unplug it while genset is running due to genset malfunction or it's on fire & they then come in contact with the hot plug end it would be a bad day.

Anyway, just saying for public consumption...carry on.

 

[loosegravel]

I was just reading this thread from yesterday and it occurred to me. My brother and his wife moved to eastern Washington a few years ago. When they had their house built, they had a solar system installed on their roof. When their solar panels are making more power than they're consuming, the extra power goes back into the grid, and they get "credits" toward their electric bill. There is no battery bank on their system. I haven't asked them what happens in a power outage. Is their solar system still producing power? If so, isn't the excess power still going back on the grid? I would assume that the solar system automatically shuts down when the main line power is interrupted.

 

[Andyrv6av8r]

I was just reading this thread from yesterday and it occurred to me. My brother and his wife moved to eastern Washington a few years ago. When they had their house built, they had a solar system installed on their roof. When their solar panels are making more power than they're consuming, the extra power goes back into the grid, and they get "credits" toward their electric bill. There is no battery bank on their system. I haven't asked them what happens in a power outage. Is their solar system still producing power? If so, isn't the excess power still going back on the grid? I would assume that the solar system automatically shuts down when the main line power is interrupted.

My understanding, according to a " Solar " friend of mine is that with no line power you cannot use your panels unless you have battery backup in place.