Newbie needs help, fuel problem

[cummins7]

Back story:
Bought 1971 am general m35a2 with the continental multifuel engine with whistler turbo 2 weeks ago. Milage: 40k hours: 8k

Previous owner: cool guy collects old MV and purchased this to experiment with different fuels. He went to veggie oil first and said it ran great and he said the in tank pump turned on with the accesories switch on, turns out it wasnt! He started noticing problems later down the road which was to use a shot of ether to get it started, then he switched to used motor oil and gas combo, conditions got worse till the point he was about half power all the time, he found out the intank pump was out about 2 weeks before I bought the truck. He replaced it with a carter in line but same problem... Half power and won't start on its own. I bought for scrap price knowing the problem it had. Truck is in excellent shape with zero rust anywhere.

What I've done so far:
15gal of fresh diesel with diesel klean additive
New fuel lines
New filters
Dropped tank and had it steam cleaned
Checked fuel shutoff road, checked out good
Overflow valve checked and cleaned
Checked the HH for the piston that has reputation for problem it checked out to be moving and pumping fuel but not sure how far it supposed to move up and down
Put fuel pressure gauge on and reads 5 psi with switch on and stays the same when cranking
Cracked injectors and no fuel

Problem:
After switching to diesel it will not start at all. Best luck I've had is fully charged batteries to crank it fast as possible and start for roughly 15-20 seconds and slowly drops rpms till it finally shuts off. Will a simple HH fix my problem or am I looking at a whole new injection pump, where do I find either?? There's a pump on eBay used but no HH, or is there a fix that can be done or rebuilt? Sorry for such long post but maybe some one has had same problem and knows how to fix it. I did drive the truck to my house and around the block before I switched it to diesel and it started doing this about three months ago when previous owner had it

 

[~JdOwNj~]

Disclaimer: My diesel knowledge came from a farm, not MVs, and I have no experience with this vehicle.

That being said, once you start feeding ether to a motor, that is the beginning of the end. It won't be long until it will NEVER start without ether. If you can fix the immediate problem and get it to start without ether, you might be okay. A compression test will help tell if the ether, alternate fuels, and age are sneaking up on the motor. Many engines will require a rebuild to cure an ether habit.

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Edit 1- In this case it does look like a fuel delivery issue, so resolve that and hopefully it will stop needing ether. Sounds like injection pump to me, but do wait for a reply from someone who knows that motor.

 

[cummins7]

100% agreed but when it does start for that 15-20 seconds it is on its on, no ether which may be a good sign. Diesel can easily be addicted to ether

 

[maxxplanck]

Cummins7, I had a simular problem. My problem was the carter in tank pump, it wont push enough. I did everything you did plus more ( even spin on fuel filters ), then I bought a new m35a2 in tank pump from olympic controls corp $240 with shipping. Best thing I did so far with my deuce, it works great.

 

[Keith_J]

Vegetable oil will gum the rings. Check compression, should be well over 500 PSI with the cold engine. If it is under 200, that is why the engine isn't starting.

You can check the fuel delivery by loosening a line to an injector. If you are getting fuel on cranking, it isn't the injection pump.

It would be easiest to install a running engine than overhauling. Unless you really want to tear it down and clean the ring grooves.

 

[cummins7]

That's what I think it might be. Just because it has the symptoms of a weak lift pump. I know from working on cummins if it's the injection pump it won't run at all, this thing has good low end torque just can't hit above 35 mph.. I'm deffinately gonna check out a new fuel pump thanks

 

[cummins7]

Keith, I currently can't get fuel to injectors and there is air bubbles in the clear return lines on the injectors, when I open the bleeder on top of the filters fuel comes out at steady stream but at low psi. I have the part number off the aftermarket pump but can't find any details on it

Edit: the guy only owned it for a year and it wasn't used often, is that a long time for an engine like this to run on different fuel?

 

[mobileauto2000]

The deuce does not need the in tank pump to run. if you have fuel coming out the bleeder on the secondary filters you have enough fuel for it to start and at least idle. Mine became very hard to start after i had it for a while. I turned up the fuel and have not had any more problems.
I run it on 100% used oil. it is my only transportation and is driven every day.

when i first got the truck i did have to replace the Hydrolic head as it had 3 injectors that would not fuel. The tank of diesel that was in the truck had a lot of water in it and took the HH and a couple injectors out during the drive home from where i bought it. So sad.

if you havent done so already pull the plug on the bottom of the fuel tank and see what comes out. I filled most of a five gal bucket with rusty gunk before i replace the HH.

Good luck

 

[Keith_J]

If you have pulled the engine stop assembly (the other end of the cable you pull to stop the engine), you should be able to rotate the control collar bellcrank easily. This is what regulates the injected quantity.

If it won't move easily, remove the governor linkage from the bellcrank and try to get it to rotate. It MUST rotate freely for the engine to run. It is also the most sensitive part of the injection pump to poor fuel since it doesn't move with any great speed and has fuel on one side, engine oil on the other.

If it cannot move freely, you can remove it to clean it. Clip the safety wires on the screws, remove the screws and pull the bellcrank. Be very careful, on the end is the pawl which moves the collar up and down. Soak in Berryman B12 Chemtool until it moves FREELY. As in falls down on its own weight. Resist temptation to take the nut off and pull the shaft, unless you can get it on EXACTLY, the governor won't like it if off the smallest amount.

Replace the 0-ring. Now for the fun part. That pawl? Secure it with a small bit of grease. Now look where the bellcrank goes, deep in the hole is a collar with a groove that engages the pawl. The bellcrank's rotation causes the collar to slide up and down, this sets the injection quantity. So you have to align the pawl into this slot AND rotate the bellcrank to match the vertical position. It can be done easily on the deuce.

Check for free movement and range of motion. Reconnect the governor linkage, then safety wire the screws and reinstall the stop solenoid cover.

These are Bosch distributor pump designs. Yes, I have done this on a deuce and my MEP-002A. Very similar design on that generator's Ambac which used to be known as American Bosch.

 

[cummins7]

Just checked it this morning and moves freely and stays at the 7 o clock position. Also the guy who had it said he turned up the pump to compensate the different fuel. Is there such a thing as too far for it to run on diesel? And it ran and drove on veggie oil the same day I switched it over to diesel, could the viscosity of diesel be to thin to pump if it is worn out?

 

[cummins7]

Anybody have any ideas? Tnj Murray has a hydraulic head for $475, any place cheaper?

 

[mobileauto2000]

You can usually find one in the classifieds here cheaper than that

 

[cummins7]

Took the hydraulic head off tonight hoping something was wrong but everything looked okay so I'm letting everything sit in diesel over night, anybody know if that piston is supposed to move up and down when it's off the pump?

 

[cummins7]

Put it all back together, got fuel to injectors finally but still won't start, a guy I bought it from said to try and find a IP out of a 5 Ton anybody that has the info I need to track one down, part number, model number, engine it would come off??? Any help would be greatly appreciated spent two weeks straight trying everything to get it to atleast idle but nothing what so ever

 

[Stan]

What did you do regarding the intake pump? Are you sure that your getting sufficent fuel to the inj. pump?

 

[gimpyrobb]

PM sent

 

[Westex]

Try EMR on this site. He helped me previously with some injector pump parts.

 

[cummins7]

I disconnected all injection lines to injectors one at a time to check for fuel and all but the first one was easy. Couldn't break the seal on the first injection line so I pulled the injector and disassembled just the top part where the return is and not a drop of diesel just some veggie oil and dried up veggie oil, cleaned the tip with some Emory cloth and checked the line for fuel, it pumps out the injection line at some psi but not life threating... I took the bleeder off the fuel filter assembly and installed gauge but doesn't seem to move but it is in multiple of 20 psi and when I crack it to bleed the air it spurts out and then has a good steady flow.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I will try to make this short and sweet. The in-tank fuel pump puts out about 5-7psi. It is used mostly to bleed air out of the system prior to starting the truck. The injection pump has a fuel pump in it too. That booster pump raises the fuel pressure to about 60 psi. Then the fuel goes through the 2 filters on the side of the motor and to the hydraulic head which creates the real high pressure, to make the injectors pop. If you are seeing only 20 psi at your two filters on the side of the block with the truck running, that sounds like an issue that needs resolved. If that is the pressure while cranking it over, that sounds ok. You said you took off all the injeection lines, was there fuel at them?

 

[cummins7]

Cranking or just the pump on is around 5 psi, I got fuel out of the lines but it's like little streams come out of the end, could the thickness of the veggie oil compared to the diesel be the problem like its just leaking back into the IP instead of building pressure.