Non-Detergent Motor Oil???

[SasquatchSanta]

The other day, after driving my M37 for approximately six I noticed that the oil lines to the stock remove oil filter were still cold. That tells me that in the six miles that I usually drive to town and back the filter isn't warming up enough to stop by-passing.

With this in mind, I'm considering changing to straight 30W non-detergent oil.

I'm told the big advantage to modern detergent oil is that it keeps dirt and crud in suspension so a modern, high efficiency oil filter can remove it. The way I see it, in an M37 there are two problems. First, the stock canister oil filter is far from being high efficiency. At 20 micron you could throw a cat through it. Second, the stock filter appears to be by-passing most of the time during sold weather season.

Therefore .... "PLESE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG" ... The "Modern" detergent oil is keeping the dirt in suspension where it is not being filtered/cleaned and therefore is constantly curculating the dirt and crud in suspension through the engine instead of allowing it to drop out and into the bottom of the pan --- as non-detergent oil would. I think I'd rather have the dirt in the bottom of the pan than constantly curculating through the bearings.

Under this scenario, it seems more logical to run non-detergent oil and change it often.

We are installing the new pistons, rings and rod Thursday. I'm also installing an oil pan heater so the straight 30W won't cause cold start problems. I've come to the conclusion that it's "always" best to start 'em warm --- plug 'em in.

What do you think about running non-detergent oil???

 

[saquishmike]

"At 20 micron you could throw a cat through it. " That's the best saying I've heard this week

 

[kc5mzd]

When you use non-detergent oil all the "dirt and crud" sticks to the inside of your engine - not just the pan. It would be better to run detergent oil and change it often to keep the inside of your oil passages clean. I live in Texas it never gets below 25 - 30 here. Is 6 miles even enough to get the oil to warm up? Diesels naturally run colder. I took my fan off this winter because I was doing a lot of on road driving the radiator is still always cool unless I idle for over 20 min. Have you considered taking the fan off to get more power, faster warm-ups, and better mpg?

 

[JasonS]

Honestly, I think that you are worrying too much. 20 micron is probably typical for mass market, common car/ light truck filter. However, even with a virtually worthless bypass oil filter, you should still get good service out of your truck. It is not that your oil filer is or isn't efficient. The problem is that it isn't EFFECTIVE. I wouldn't run non-detergent oil.

 

[garp]

I would question whether or not you actually have oil flow thru the lines, if the lines are cold, there is no oil flowing. Maybe I am missing something here?

 

[Bill W]

First off being 230's have a "bypass" filtering system none of the oil going to your bearings gets filtered .,bypass filter taps off the high pressure oil galley, small amounts of that oil then goes through the bypass filter and then returned to the oil pan via the pressure relief valve ( see #32 in cutaway pic)which only opens when oil pressure in the engine reaches 45psi or greater,if it doesn't reach 45psi the filtered oil deadheads at the ( unopened) valve which might be possible reason why your lines are cold. If you have not rebuilt your engine then I would stick with Nondetergent As mentioned detergent oil keeps debri in suspension so you should not run that type of oil in a older ( non rebuilt) block as you'll just be picking up the loose crud in the pan and sending it through the bearings. .I used detergent 30w in my 230 after I rebuilt it.,I changed it every 2000miles., If I remember right they recommend changing the bypass filter element every 10k. All this info can be confirmed in the operators manual. Later more modern engines were designed/built to have "full flow" filter systems which allowed the oil to be filtered first before it goes through the bearings.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

kc5mzd wrote:

When you use non-detergent oil all the "dirt and crud" sticks to the inside of your engine - not just the pan. It would be better to run detergent oil and change it often to keep the inside of your oil passages clean. I live in Texas it never gets below 25 - 30 here. Is 6 miles even enough to get the oil to warm up? Diesels naturally run colder. I took my fan off this winter because I was doing a lot of on road driving the radiator is still always cool unless I idle for over 20 min. Have you considered taking the fan off to get more power, faster warm-ups, and better mpg?

The water pump fas has indeed been removed and an electric fan installed. The electric fan comes on at 190 and goes off at 185. In 6 miles, with a little pre idling time, the water temp will get up to 190 but evidently the oil isn't warming up enough to stop by-passing the filter.
It's not uncommon to have 20 to 25 below zero weather us here. I try not to leave the house when it gets under 30 below.

Bill W wrote:

First off being 230's have a "bypass" filtering system none of the oil going to your bearings gets filtered .,bypass filter taps off the high pressure oil galley, small amounts of that oil then goes through the bypass filter and then returned to the oil pan via the pressure relief valve ( see #32 in cutaway pic)which only opens when oil pressure in the engine reaches 45psi or greater,if it doesn't reach 45psi the filtered oil deadheads at the ( unopened) valve which might be possible reason why your lines are cold. If you have not rebuilt your engine then I would stick with Nondetergent As mentioned detergent oil keeps debri in suspension so you should not run that type of oil in a older ( non rebuilt) block as you'll just be picking up the loose crud in the pan and sending it through the bearings. .I used detergent 30w in my 230 after I rebuilt it.,I changed it every 2000miles., If I remember right they recommend changing the bypass filter element every 10k. All this info can be confirmed in the operators manual. Later more modern engines were designed/built to have "full flow" filter systems which allowed the oil to be filtered first before it goes through the bearings.

I wasn't aware that the by-pass threashold was 45PSI. Even though the engine is currently down because of gas in oil contamination problems I've always had good oil pressure. The engine was boiled and completely rebuilt about 250 hours ago.

One of the reasons I feel the filter is bypassing is because of the cold weather. The stock filter sets off to the side of the engine where it is full of 25 below zero oil and in my opinion it simply takes too long to warm up to be effective.

By the time the oil gets hot enough the clear the cold oil plug from the filter it may he warm enough to where the pressure drops below 45 PSI --- it's like a cat chasing it's tail.

The inverted "drain back" filters on the deuce were designed to counter this cold weather problem. By having all of the oil in the pan it could be warmed in the pan by the arctic heater and therefore ready for the filters upon start up. The only reason I didn't go with Jatonka's anti-drain back spin on filters was because of the cold weather factor. The pre-lube pump system I installed to counter the oil pressure delay is a pain in the butt to have to operate all the time.

Anyway, I tend to agree with you on the non-detergent (non-suspension) oil. I think because it was something that was used in the past that we tend to think of it as sub-modern wen in reality the old Chrysler engines are not sub-modern.

I'm told it is/was common practice to remove the by-pass oil filter from the MB and CJ2A Jeeps. The reason --- they were all but in-effective. I'm thinking about removing the by-pass filter from the M37 and changing the oil (non-detergent) every thousand miles. It makes good Deuce fuel.

 

[Barrman]

What about making a full flow filter set up like Jason did on his Gasser?

 

[SasquatchSanta]

What about making a full flow filter set up like Jason did on his Gasser?

I've got a 251 Spitfire engine with full flow that I plan on rebuilding this summer. It will replace the 230.

I'll have to check out Jason's modification

 

[oifvet]

"At 20 micron you could throw a cat through it. " That's the best saying I've heard this week

 

[SasquatchSanta]

What about making a full flow filter set up like Jason did on his Gasser?

I just did a search on Jason. The search indicated that he hasn't made any posts

Maybe the site is goofing up. Do you have a thread link?

 

[nk14zp]

How did the inside look when you tore it down?

 

[jimk]

The API ratings for commonly available non-detergent SAE30 is S/A or S/B. The detergent SAE30 oil, and most all mulit-grade oil is typically S/M,S/L or S/J. You may run into problems trying to use it at, or near, the lower part of its temp range. One example would be starting the truck on what seem like a warm enough day, say 25*F, however if it was sitting in an unheated garage, and the last few days were colder( or almost any night), the oil inside the engine will be below the ambient temp -and- the recommended operating range. The pump may have trouble picking up that cold oil and the motor does not have adequate lubrication when it needs it the most, when the galleries and bearings have long since drained.

Another example might be someone in a tight spot and needs to move it at 15*F. Changing the oil in 15*F weather to move the thing 50 ft seems like a pain so they make an exception figuring it is just a quicklie, or it will warm up fast enough. Again , the engine has poor lube when it needs it the most.

Multi-grade oil might be best in your climate. The 'W' in, say 15W-40, stands for Winter, and oils with it will have a much lower cold temp pumping spec. The other benefits are detergents, a better API rating and a better additive package.

My Stalwart calls for obscure SAE30 mid detergent mil spec oil. I use modern truck 15W40 or sometimes create a mix of detergent SAE30 and 10w40. I don't often run it in the winter but can if the need were to arise. It is no fun (and expensive) changing 6 gal of clean oil in the winter.

The multi-grade oils were developed after the Stalwart single weight spec was written, which is the reason it is never seen(duh). The modern multi-grade oils are much better than the first generation multi-grade products (late 60's /early70's) . The pioneers often got a bad reputation for sludge because the old tech polymerizes broke down. I'm sure the engineers would have spec'd a multi-grade oil had it been avail., as now everyone(?) does.


ps Just read your post again and see you are going to use a heater. Sorry about rambling on and on about the cold oil starting issues.

 

[JasonS]

Oil temperature lags coolant temperature. I suspect that you simply didn't allow enough warmup time. The bypass filter won't keep engine damaging debris out of your engine but it does have some benefit. I wouldn't expend the effort to remove it.

Again, I think that you are worrying too much. You should still get good service out of your engine as-is.

The full flow filter setup on the Reo six won't apply to the 230. I do recall, however, reading on a method to do it. I'd try a google search for "230 dodge full flow oil filter". It may require block machining; so now would be a good time to do it.

 

[Bill W]

One of the regulars on Joe's Power Wagon forum ( John Eickhof??? ) made his 230 into a full flow system by blocking off the feed side of the oil pump ( where the pump mounts to the block ), he then drilled and tapped a hole on either side of the of that blockage ( one hole in the pump casting and the other in the block casting ) and and ran hoses to a full flow filter,so after the pump picked up the oil it then got filtered before it went from the pump into the block

 

[m376x6]

Northern Minnesota? in winter? 30 weight ought to be like jellied wax most of the time. Bill nailed it as far as bypass filters on these trucks. Oil starvation during cold starts and having some fuel in your oil is probably the culprit behind your problem. Stick with detergent oils. A pan heater will help. Plug it in 8 or more hours before you plan to start the engine. The best oil for winter use for you would probably be the 5W-30 oils that are common now. Folks have a tendency to want to put too heavy an oil in the their applications when cold weather is more of a strain on certain components than heat. A warmed up engine and the oil drains off of most parts as usual. Then being extremely cold the oil won't flow and splash like it should and the components that need relatively free flowing oil don't get it until a considerable time after the engine is warm. By then, the damage is done. In your neck of the woods, 5W-30 will work year round. Best of luck, I'm glad the damage was found quickly and by someone who listens to their truck and knows when something isn't right.

Regards,
M376X6

 

[Capt.Marion]

If you engine has been working fine lubrication-wise for 250 hrs, and countless hours in its previous life before rebuild, you are only going to do harm if you modify the system from how it was designed and built.

Keep in mind that if you are running it in that cold of weather, ain't a darn thing gonna get warm. It takes the big cast iron block of a 230 a while to warm up on a 90° summer day. I'm surprised that it ever gets up to temperature when it's that cold. But, then again, I've never had any experience running one of these in that cold of climate.

Seeing as this engine was designed to originally run on 30-weight motor oil, I see no harm in running it in your engine, as long as you heat up the engine in the cold weather before firing her up.

If you're maintaining good oil pressure and engine temps with the way it is set up now, you shouldn't need to change anything.

Just keep an eye on your oil pressure gauge so that it doesn't drop too low.

 

[pittdog]

attn: non deterget motor oil! only good for a motor with shot rings , and scored syilders ! good for farm use , at that kind of that use older kind of vechical's , even pov's , ! my ol man han a 49 ford pu .. had to use non detergent ! .. same applied ! ... pittdog ! nice knowin you !

 

[SasquatchSanta]

nk14zp wrote:

How did the inside look when you tore it down?

Clean --- the engine had completely rebuilt approx 250 hours ago.

jimk wrote:

The API ratings for commonly available non-detergent SAE30 is A or B. The detergent SAE30 oil, and most all mulit-grade oil is typically SM,SL or SJ. You may run into problems trying to use it at, or near, the lower part of its temp range. On example would be starting the truck on what seem like a warm enough day, say 25*F, however if it was sitting in an unheated garage, and the last few days were colder, the oil inside the engine will be below the ambient temp and the recommended operating range. The pump may trouble picking up that cold oil and the motor does not have adequate lubrication when it needs it the most, when the galleries and bearing have long since drained.......

Thanks --- That was a very informative post. I've been catching he!! all day from my friends about the non-detergent oil --- so much that I'm backing away from the idea. I've already bought straight 30 detergent for tomorrow but it won't be in long because I plan to change it out after just a couple of hours. We will be honeing the cylinders and I don't want th chance having fileings floating around in the engine. We're also installing the pan heater tomorrow so I don't think I'll have any problem with the straight 30. I'lll probably change to 5W30 for winter and maybe 10W30 in summer.

JasonS wrote:

The full flow filter setup on the Reo six won't apply to the 230. I do recall, however, reading on a method to do it. I'd try a google search for "230 dodge full flow oil filter". It may require block machining; so now would be a good time to do it.

I've got a full flow 251 Spitfire motor and also an extra Spitfire (by-pass) engine out of a 41 Chrysler in the garage that I'm going to eventually build to replace the 230. I've been holding off looking for a set of 265 rods and crank. When this all comes together it will take me out of the 230 business.

M376X6 --- I was running 5W30 when I had the problem. It was the gas in the oil that I believe brought the damage to critical mass. The rod oiler holes turned around backwards certainly didn't help from a piston cooling standpoint but the oil contamination was the culprit. In this case the cold weather "may" have saved the engine fron further damage. I was only running it on short trips to town therefore the oil didn't get hot. The crank looks and checks out perfect and the cylinder walls will clean up with just a "little' honeing. The bearings all looked good therefore I think if i'd have changed oil in it instead of tearing it down it would have quieted down BUT --- who knew! I also think the one piston that is worn .005 on the pressure side OD could be cleaned up and put back in but I'm going to install a set of pistons, bearings and rings. That way I'll know it is OK and I'll have a clear conscious if I decide to sell the engine (or the truck) at a later date. (Sometimes having a conscious is expensive).

Thanks everybody for your input. Hopefully tomorrow at this time I will be up and running (with detergent ) again.

 

[nk14zp]

If the inside looked good why worry? Ever think of a oil pan heater?