PA - Military vehicle registration....

[Sephirothq]

I went through the mess and it took a while but I have a noncommercial class B license for PA. That allows me to operate my 5 ton trucks. Not for hire not for profit.

 

[Big Dumb Truck]

I dont know if this will help or not but I didn't regester my 2 1/2 ton as an antique. My truck is registered as a station wagon (SW) and there is no gcvw listed on the registration. I do have a comercial insurance policy with Allstate. I have to get the truck inspected every 6 months. I had to add side marker lights to the bed and reverse lights.

 

[Lonnie]

I searched around on the internet trying to determine if there were a knowledge test for the Class B non commercial. The answers were mixed so I begrudgingly called the PA DMV and after waiting for some time, was able to speak to a live body. I was told that there is, in fact, a knowledge test and it is the "same" as the knowledge test for the Class B CDL. The operator seemed to have some understanding of the process and said, despite her earlier statement that the tests were the same, that you would not be tested on "things that only apply to commercial drivers" [no examples given] but was unable to explain how the knowledge test would be administered in a way that redacted the "non applicable" commercial subject matter. She did, however, like the PA State Police CDL officer mentioned above, confirm that the air brakes status is a restriction and not an endorsement.

Whatever the case, I found the appropriate form to apply for the Class B learner's permit online and I will try to get more detail on the knowledge test and the physical driving test when I go to the DMV (by the way, PA Code Title 75.11 et. al. seems to set the standards for the physical driving test).

Hope this helps and if anyone already knows the answer to the knowledge test issue above, would appreciate hearing from you. Also, can anyone tell me what is involved if I decided not to register the MV as an "antique" but as a standard truck? Does an MV not registered as an antique fall within the "non commercial" designation/exception - "any motor home or recreational trailer operated solely for personal use" or does this somehow by definition convert the truck into a "commercial" vehicle thereby perhaps requiring a CDL?

Thanks, everyone.

Ficrutch

Here is my experience...
I got the CDL manual & memorized everything. After getting to the DMV, ready for my knowledge test, I was told there was no test for a non-commercial Class B, not even for the air brakes.
I was amazed. They just handed me the permit after I wrote the check for the application fee.

My next hurdle is finding out is I need maintain a DOT medical card to operate the vehicle non-commercially... I get mixed info & no one seems to know for sure. Seems to depend on who you talk to on any given day.

Also as an FYI.... DO NOT Mention insurance here as it will just get another informative post locked. I know it is useful info, but if you feel the need to discuss, use PM or talk on the phone.

 

[Ficrutch]

Sephirothq, BDT and Lonnie,

All great information! Thanks very much. Lonnie, I was under the impression that a DOT medical card is only associated with a CDL, but as you suggest, this entire area is pretty unclear.

My biggest concern, as an earlier post indicated, is demonstrating an effort to meet compliance in the unfortunate case of an accident. I would hope that the effort to obtain a Class B non commercial, in the face of a complete lack of cogent regulations or publications in PA addressing MV registration and operation for personal use, would provide a strong defense against an aggressive ambulance chaser. For the time being, I am operating under the assumption that a Class B non-commercial with no airbrake restriction covers the personal license side of the house as well as any cross current created by the federal regulations. Regarding registration, I am still researching and will post my findings as they become more clear; however, until I am told otherwise, think that the "recreational trailer" designation/exception to the PA definition of a commercial vehicle (any motor home or recreational trailer operated solely for personal use) is where I may hang my hat.

Thanks again and would certainly appreciate any additional thoughts or experience anyone else has on the general topic.

Regards,

Ficrutch

 

[Ficrutch]

Update on Registration

I just got off of the phone with a vehicle titling company (PA uses private notaries as titling representatives authorized to title vehicles on your behalf.) The representative indicated that ultimately he decides the most appropriate category and then the PA DMV, after reviewing the title and submitted application, either agrees or doesn't agree. He also indicated that PA exercises very little independent review discretion and that unless there is something glaring on the paperwork, the notary's choice stands. Here is what he said he would consider as possible options: (by the way, I found all registration categories and fees on Bureau of Motor Vehicles Schedule of Fees Form MV 70 S)

1. Special Mobile Equipment - not completely on point but could be a possibility. Used typically for machinery added to trailers, however.
2. Farm Vehicle - would work but only if you can prove via your tax form that you are a commercial farmer;
3. Antique or Collectable - has some restrictions but may be the best fit - see description below"It is unlawful for any person to operate a motorcycle or vehicle with antique, classic or vintage registration plates for general daily transportation. Permitted use shall be limited to participation in club activities, exhibits, tours, parades, occasional transportation and similar uses." [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Occasional transportation and similar uses is defined as one day a week. [/FONT][/FONT]
Although buses and trucks are eligible for antique, classic and vintage registration plates, buses
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]MAY NOT [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]be used to transport passengers and trucks [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]MAY NOT [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]haul cargo. Antique, classic and vintage registration plates are not available for motorized pedalcycles or motor homes.

4. Regular truck registration depending on the weight. VERY expensive (around $550 or higher per year depending on the Gross vehicle weight)

He indicated that the registration itself was not relevant and had no bearing on a commercial vs. non commercial use, so the absolute easiest choice from a potential liability perspective would be to simply register it as a truck in the appropriate weight class. The only problem with that is the $550 a year cost which strikes me as astronomical. In my opinion, the second cleanest choice would be the antique (25 years old or more) or classic category (15 years old or more) which is $75 dollars per year but subject to the restrictions I noted above. Regarding the restrictions, occasional transportation is defined as one day a week and I think that is wide open for interpretation, e.g., is one day a week 24 hours per week or simply using it one time a week. I think the former makes more sense and assume most people aren't driving their trucks typically more than 24 hours over a seven day period. Regarding the cargo carrying restriction on trucks, I would make the case that the intention of the restriction and the definition of "cargo" in this context is focused on the commercial transportation of goods, in other words, transportation of goods fore hire, so carrying an ATV or a load of logs, as examples, would not be prohibited.

In summary, I am of the opinion, based on my research and calls to various DMV and state police representatives, that obtaining a Pennsylvania Class B non commercial driver's license with no airbrake restriction and accompanying registration either as an antique or classic vehicle (noting use restrictions above) or simply a regular truck (registered in the appropriate weight category) are the cleanest and most appropriate ways to get an over 26,000 pound MV legally on the road in Pennsylvania. The question of whether you will ultimately have to take a knowledge test appears to be random depending upon the particular DMV office you use, but if you want to be prepared, study the manual for the CDL test and show up with an appropriate MV in case an actual driving test is required. I hope this is informative and it is how I am proceeding. I will let everyone know if I run into any issues.

Thanks,

Ficrutch

 

[Lonnie]

Antique & Classics are a 1 time fee, not annual in PA. Registration is permanent.

As far as usage, I was told by a state trooper, if they see a vehicle with antique plates 2 days in a row, they can cite them for improper use, which should result in taking the registration away.
Moral of the story is, you better be going to a parade or show 1 of those days you are seen. If you start to attract attention, which I'm sure it will, you better be careful.

As for hauling cargo with the antique plate, I was told no cargo, meaning for neither for hire nor personal use.
If you want to haul or pull a trailer, you must pay for the weight class you are in.
My antique title came back with the unladen weight only printed on the title, it no longer has a weight classification as far as the title is concerned.

 

[Ficrutch]

Thanks, Lonnie,

Those are great points and thanks for clarifying that the antique and classic designations are not annual but lifetime.
In my opinion, it really comes down to how you anticipate using the vehicle and your willingness to challenge a decision. I would disagree with the state policeman's analysis which you cited as I am sure at least some other state policeman would as well, and it would ultimately be a matter for the judge. Same position with cargo. As I noted in earlier correspondence, almost all of the "rules" and regulations (when you can even find them) regarding licensing and registration of MVs for personal use strike me as vague, open to interpretation and not understood by those individuals responsible for their execution and enforcement. This sentiment was formed over the last day as I was given numerous and differing answers by DMV personnel and state police representatives on questions as basic and seemingly free from interpretation as whether or not there is a knowledge test for a Class B non commercial license!

Is cargo by definition something limited solely to being carried in the bed of the vehicle, or does that also include the cabin? Is cargo a ten speed bike, a dishwasher, a pallet of bricks or steel, the wallet in your back pocket, a suitcase, something tied to a bill of lading or freight etc? Is the definition based on personal ownership, weight, size, bulk, transportation for hire or all or none of the above? Are the restrictions associated with antique or classic registrations born out of a safety concern, or are they financial in nature and in place to keep "commercial" truckers from using old trucks to avoid the extremely high annual registration fees?

I raise these questions in a somewhat cavalier manner as I hope you can see but at this point, I respectfully have to say, "who knows." I am going to move forward as noted. If the matter needs to be challenged, I think I would enjoy the opportunity to poke a little fun at the bureaucracy.

Many thanks again for the insight and the well placed concern. I agree and respect your concerns and appreciate your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Ficrutch

 

[Big Dumb Truck]

If you regester your truck in Pa. as an antique you have to send the dmv a copy of your ANTIQUE insurance policy with your title. Your ANTIQUE insurance policy will spell out very clearly that no cargo means NO cargo. If you stop for icecream, you better eat it standing on the sidewalk. Your insurance policy is a binding contract and it can be used against you.

 

[Ficrutch]

Hi BDT,

My State Farm agent says otherwise - you do not have to use an antique insurance policy when registering a vehicle as an antique in PA. If you think differently, please let me know the source. People typically use the antique insurance policies because they are much less expensive, but not mandatory. I searched quite a bit and found no requirement to do so either. State Farm also confirmed that they do not discuss the definition of "Cargo" in their policy and do not mention it and I agree that a private agreement between an insurer and the insured does not provide meaning to a state statute or regulation.

The point may be moot, but if you look at the language used "cargo," you can't help but think that PA would have used a term like "property" or "items" to describe the prohibition if they really didn't want you to put anything in the vehicle. They use that terminology in other places in their vehicle statutes but the only other place I found the term "cargo" was in the Commercial Driver's license manual and it clearly referred to the hauling of commercial product. Any additional thoughts?

Thanks,

Ficrutch

 

[Big Dumb Truck]

I have been jumping through all of the DMV'S hoops for the last 4 months. Having just gone through all of this I am positive that antique insurance is needed and that if you have an accident with any cargo in your truck that your policy will be void. They will refuse to pay your claim. I still have my antique policy with Golfway and I have a comercial policy with Allstate. Both are the same price. For me the best way to go was to get the comercial policy and a state inspection because I will be using my truck for firewood and stone. I intend to keep both policies because the antique policy covers my truck for theft, fire and any act of God as long as it is not being used in a way inconsistent with the terms of the policy.
That's all I've got. Good luck.

 

[Ficrutch]

Thanks for the response

 

[antennaclimber]

I asked a judge about the cargo restriction and PA Antique vehicles. His interpretation of cargo was that it implies being paid to transport the objects or materials.

Cargo is also defined as freight, freight implies being paid to transport materials and goods. Splitting hairs here with the PA laws. Cargo implies that you are being compensated to transport goods and materials.

I asked an insurance agent about this as well, his answer was that I could not use the vehicle for hire and haul cargo (freight). However, if you do haul anything be sure it is yours. Now it's not freight, it is "personal property".

Additionally, driving your Antique vehicle 2 days in a row is perfectly legal. Day 1 you could use it as your daily driver, Day 2 you could go to a car show, Day 3 you could go to a parade. The restrictions do not say that you can only drive it one day a week. You can only drive it to the events listed in the restrictions and occasional use 1 day a week.

You can also drive your Antique vehicle at night in PA. As long as it meets the lighting requirements set forth in the PA vehicle inspection standards.
Karl

 

[Ficrutch]

Karl,

Thanks for the note. I know there is a difference of opinion on the topic on this thread but agree that the interpretation you just put forward makes a great deal more sense.

If you think about the reason commercial trucks are charged annual registration fees at levels well above a standard car registration, the theory makes even more sense. Registration fees for commercial vehicles based on weight of the vehicle is really an acknowledgement that the heavier the vehicle, the more wear and tear it will put on the highways and the greater the associated maintenance costs.

Standard personal vehicles, although they can be large, do not put the same wear and tear on the infrastructure. In addition, they are typically not driven at the yearly mileage levels commercial vehicles are driven. Although I have not seen the legislative intent behind the antique and classic car registration caveat, I can only presume that it was an acknowledgement of the above, i.e., it would be unfair to tax a car which is rarely used at the same level as a car used for daily transportation.

As it pertains to trucks, the logic carries over nicely - it would be unfair to assess a former "commercial" or large truck whose primary function was carrying large loads or driving substantial miles or presumably both, at the same rate as a "retired" truck now being used occasionally by its owner for parades, personal use, vehicle meets or whatever that owner feels is an appropriate use short of commercial purposes and daily transportation. State Farm would seem to acknowledge this as well to the extent their antique policy, based on the representation of my agent and I would like to make it clear I have yet to read it personally, simply mirrors the language of the PA statute to the point of using the term "cargo."

Unfortunately, the issue of enforcement still lingers. I have to assume based on some of the posts that some state and local police may be as confused as everyone else, and this was certainly my experience relayed some posts back with the state policeman with whom I spoke as well as the DMV representatives. (On a side note, I can't wait to see if I actually have to take a knowledge test when I show up to get my non commercial Class B license!)

Whatever the case, I am convinced at this point that I can use an MV to carry firewood and any other personal property I desire to load and be within the requirements of the law with a Class B non commercial license and with an antique registration. Regarding insurance, I confirmed again with my agent that I can use a standard policy or an antique policy when I register as antique, and on that front, will decide once I review the actual terms and conditions of the policy (on a side note, I understand that some agencies will not issue an antique policy unless you can demonstrate that the vehicle will be garaged indoors.)

I guess at this point, it should be said that my opinion is just that, an opinion, but I have tried to give everyone reading these posts the rational for having reached it as well as insight into conversations I have had. I suggest everyone do the same and reach your own conclusions to the extent there does seem to be a great deal of confusion on the topic within the ranks of those empowered with enforcing the provisions. Thanks everyone for all of the input. It was really informative.

Ficrutch

 

[Big Dumb Truck]

Try explaining that logic at a weigh in station with a 5 ton load of firewood. I dare you.

 

[Ficrutch]

BDT,

I am not in the habit of explaining myself to enforcement officers. Any explanation would be with the judge and I am prepared to do so. Thanks for your concern, though.

Sincerely,

Ficrutch

 

[Lonnie]

One of the biggest things I see are about hauling a load or cargo(whatever you care to call or interpret it as) (antique or otherwise) is the state wants you to pay for the privledge to haul something.
As an example, a 1 ton truck could be overloaded when empty if you could license/title it as a 1/2 ton due to the empty weight. If you want to use it as a 1 ton, you have to pay for the appropriate plate to haul the corresponding weight.
Not sure a $75 lifetime plate fee would take the place of a $1000+/yr plate fee. I'm sure it also is frowned upon that you are using a vehicle that has not been safety inspected to haul something. (no inspection on antiques either)

When you get antique plates, you no longer have a GVW weight classification, only the empty weight on the title.
If weighed at the scales, you could be consired overloaded based on the paperwork, not the actual capability of the vehicle.

There was a time that guys in 1/2 ton pickups were getting pulled & weighed for having snow plows with nothing in the bed & being overloaded based on their registration.

Yes you can fight this in court & may win, but in the meantime you may be paying impound fees, towing or some other rediculous fees just to get your vehicle home.

I can also talk myself into the fact that my title now says 22,xxx lb unladen weight & no other GVW designations, plus they also sent me a class 8 weight class decal with my plate, so i must not need a Class B license either as it is under 26,000lb.
Not sure I want to explain that to the police.

Not trying to be argumentative, but interpretation will ultimately come down to someone elses judgement with you being at the mercy of their decision.
Logic does not apply unfortunately.

 

[Ficrutch]

Lonnie,

Good points and I can certainly understand where you are coming from. This is an area fraught with pitfalls and it is truly unclear. PA could have been much more clear with the use or substitution of just a few words (property, items etc. but they chose to use terms of art like "cargo"). I am no expert in the area but I am not sure that the registration defines the GVWR limitation as much as the manufacturer's certification which I presume is permanently affixed to the truck by placard or VIN trace.

I cannot think of many recurring situations where a vehicle which is not being used in a commercial manner is regularly hauling huge loads on a regular basis. I keep coming back to a question of intent? How many private users for personal use would regularly use the truck in a way that pushes the weight envelope? (a typical owner will only carry so many loads of firewood or pallets of brick in an individual, non commercial capacity - or else it is being used commercially - and let's not forget that there is a serious use limitation as it pertains to the number of times it can be used in a week as we have already seen.)

I really see that as the key and I cannot think of a logical reason that the legislature would want to require someone like you or me to pay the same, annual registration fees as commercial users for the one or two times a year we carry a load of firewood or a pallet of bricks to build a barbecue. The antique registration is qualified by limitations on the frequency and manner in which the truck can be driven. The "cargo" language makes the same point when interpreted as commercial cargo and I can see the logic - "we the legislature do not want you to regularly use these trucks in a commercial manner that increases infrastructure costs and endangers public safety. On the other hand, as citizens of the commonwealth, we do not want you overly burdened by fees clearly geared toward commercial transportation providers and we acknowledge your right to own them but not necessarily in the same manner as they were originally intended, i.e., commercial or very special use as in the case of an MV."

To interpret the language in a manner that eliminates the ability even to throw a suitcase or bicycle or dishwasher in the bed seems to run contrary to what appears to be the intention - and we haven't even touched the question of the seating for 21 personnel - lol! However, as noted, it is solely my opinion and I have attempted to be very opaque both with the logic as well as the conversations I have had to get to my conclusion.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful input.

Sincerely,

Ficrutch

 

[Yarz]

Tons of good info/discussion here! Thanks to all who have contacted the authorities to help sort it out!

I did not want the cargo or amount of use restrictions on my Deuce, since I interpreted it as any cargo at all (and I'll get the occasional load of firewood), so I registered it as a normal truck, weight class 6, insured with Allstate. This allows me to be up to 17000 lbs, AND keeps me at one annual inspection, while reducing my registration cost to a more manageable amount.

 

[rfb]

Hi, I am new to forum and wanted to ask if anyone know how difficult it is to get a title for an 86 HMMWV in PA? I am looking to purchase one and there is no title just a bill of sale. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
THanks

 

[datadawg]

BDT,

I am not in the habit of explaining myself to enforcement officers. Any explanation would be with the judge and I am prepared to do so. Thanks for your concern, though.

Sincerely,

Ficrutch

The problem with this approach is that, when LEO pulls you over, they are already nervous, lest you are some anarchist or worse, a lunatic or terrorist. So, unless it's local LEO that knows you, your best approach is to be super courteous, and immediately explain that you are a collector/aficionado of army vehicles and want to promote legacy of our military. Anything that establishes you are a patriot of this country and not a threat to LEO. If you are argumentative or confrontational (even if correct) about weight or registration issues, you run the very real risk of being cited with multiple violations -- or worse, having your vehicle impounded.

If that happens, there is 90% chance you will lose no matter the merit of your case, at local level (district justice), since the Courts are automatically inclined to believe the factual allegations of the officer. In PA, they also get substantial revenue from ticket "junk fees." Successful appeals are rare. I once appealed a traffic ticket that I considered unfair, lost with district justice and after losing another appeal (at Court of Common Pleas), I managed to get ticket overturned by Superior Court. It cost me $20K in legal fees and lost time, but I "won." I can't tell you how much aggravation this ordeal caused, and if you are paying for legal fees, you lose even if you "win."

I definitely would not want to argue interpretational issues on the side of the road with LEO. Fortunately, once LEO is comfortable you are not a threat or a loonie, they do respect military and you sort of get some professional courtesy driving a military truck - unless you are confrontational. I only got pulled over by local LEO in my 5 ton once. Cop claimed (incorrectly) I had no insurance and that it was illegal to have kids in back (subject to debate). If I argued with him or acted like he is a moron (which he was), I would have gotten ticketed or worse. Instead, he waived me off and didn't even give me a written warning.