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PART NUMBER/NAME FOR STARTER SOLENOID MOUNTED ON FRAME
- Thread starter chucky
- Start date
Thanks thats it ! Now how to tell if its not working correctly ?
With truck running the hot post on the battery side reads 28 volts the other big post to front reads nothing !
Ive been using a push button mechanic starter button that cliped onto starter solenoid for the last couple years ! I wasnt in a big rush to sort this out because it was /is a theft deturent if you dont know where it is but i would like to see if a new starter relay would make the ignition key go back to working in the cab !
And of coarse this relay is magically 200 bucks cause its on something green and from what im seeing its seems to be a plain 200 amp 24v relay
So my question is if anyone has used a regular 24 volt 200 amp relay which are 39 bucks instead of 200 to remedy this problem
Or is my relay doing what its suposed to do by droping power across those 2 hot post on the relay when the truck is running ?
Are you 100% sure it is the relay? I thought my no crank issue was the relay. Found out after @Ronmar directed me to it, that it was my oil switch on the engine. Fixed the switch and wala, it cranked over and started.
Here my post. Number 4, 5 and 6 shows it was the oil switch.
Here my post. Number 4, 5 and 6 shows it was the oil switch.
M1083A1 Starting Issues
Hello everyone, I didn't want to hijack anyone else's posting so I'm starting this one. If this needs to be moved somewhere else, okay. Sorry if this thread is long but I want to get out as much info as possible. My truck is a 2002 Stewart & Stevenson M1083A1, 3126 Caterpillar. I purchased it...
www.steelsoldiers.com
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Just in case:
NSN 2920-01-361-5802
Part #'s
12414619 BAE
19999220 OSHKOSH
SBC-4401E-1 AMETEK & PRESTOLITE
Org. Cost $26.25
Did you use all these part numbers to look in the net? Both AMETEK & PRESTOLITE have them on hand. Did not look any farther.
NSN 2920-01-361-5802
Part #'s
12414619 BAE
19999220 OSHKOSH
SBC-4401E-1 AMETEK & PRESTOLITE
Org. Cost $26.25
Did you use all these part numbers to look in the net? Both AMETEK & PRESTOLITE have them on hand. Did not look any farther.
Yes i found the sbc 4401e-1 number this morning and some that seem to be similar for a lot less money for the same 24 v 100 amp relay so im going to wait till ive got another set of eyes so one can hit the key switch while im metering the frame relay to see if its doing what its supposed to .
Thanks you gave me what i need to know now just wait for another set of hands and maybe it will be something simple like yours !!!!!
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What I use for a second set of hands:
- Need power from battery to some place? Just unroll what you need to reach, up to 30 ft.
- need to activate a remote relay/solenoid, add a switch.
- need to monitor voltage somewhere, attach your meter .
- need an audible of when power becomes available? Attach a Sonalert.
- Need power from battery to some place? Just unroll what you need to reach, up to 30 ft.
- need to activate a remote relay/solenoid, add a switch.
- need to monitor voltage somewhere, attach your meter .
- need an audible of when power becomes available? Attach a Sonalert.
Attachments
Oh yea that would make things a lot more doable trying to trouble shoot stuff like this for sure ! I will find me one of these tonight ! THANKS looks like local harbour freight has them in stock so i will take a ride in the morning for sure !!
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Isn’t that evidence, in and of itself, that the solenoid is working? Or does yours actually bypass the solenoid?
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If it turns out you need a good relay, I have quite a few. Just PM me.
Im not sure this electrical stu is not my strong suit .
Thanks i will let you know once i figure it all out .
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- Portland, OR
If you take a picture of the manual button hooked up to the solenoid and post it, I should be able to tell.
Im going back out there in the morning armed with test lights and meter extensions that i gatherd up today and im going to start at the key switch i installed originally and make sure its not bad then start working my way to the starter relay ! I will take some pics as i go and post them tomorrow , THANKS
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If you still have the factory start button and switch on the dash, it may be worth considering them. At least for testing purposes. Lots of folks have had troubles with a "too much apperage" situation on aftermarket keyed switches.
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If you still have the factory start button and switch on the dash, it may be worth considering them. At least for testing purposes. Lots of folks have had troubles with a "too much apperage" situation on aftermarket keyed switches.
Ronmar
Well-known member
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I always start with what goes click and what dash lights are on when you turn on the ign sw?
K2(ign) K11(alt excite) and K24(starter lockout) should energize, and the oil light in the dash should light.
Then I ask what goes click when you push the start button?
K1(starter) in the power panel, and the Aux start relay down on the frame should go click when you push the button.
If the 3 relays and oil light come on the oil pressure sw is OK(should go out when the engine starts
). K1 going click when you push the start button proves that.
K1 provides 24V down to that large aux relay on the frame. The ground side of the frame relay goes thru a thermal sw plug to ground. Some starters have thermal switches in them, so that plug is connected to the front of the starter motor. On starters that don’t have the thermal sw, that plug has a jumper in it and is usually taped back into the wire harness.
with an ohm meter measure from each of the small terminals(relay coil terminals) on the frame relay to ground. Don’t remove any wires, you don’t have to. The main ground point is right there on the front of the starter motor(has a strap from there to frame), so is a great place to measure resistance to.
if you have high resistance/open measured to ground from either small terminal, that thermal sw or jumpered thermal sw plug or the wire may be bad. It connects to that main starter ground point.
if you have a low resistance path to ground on one frame relay small terminal and a high resistance/open path on the other, the frame relay coil may be bad.
if you have a low resistance path to ground on both small terminals(one a little higher than the other) then this would be a normal condition, as one terminal is connected to ground thru the thermal sw/plug, and the second terminal is connected to the first thru the relays coil winding.
if everything in the cab is working and K1 goes click when you push the starter button, 24V should be reaching the frame relay, kind of like the ground test I described above, if you see 24V on both small terminals with the start button pressed, there probably is no path to ground. If you only see it on one small terminal, the frame relay coil may be bad. If you don’t see any voltage or really low voltage, K1 may have bad contacts or you may have a bad connection between K1 and the frame relay(frame relay pulls more current than the wiring resistance can deliver).
That 100A aux start relay is really an old school way of dealing with a large solenoid coil. When you de-energize a coil, the collapsing magnetic field creates a reverse or flyback voltage spike. Back before the transistor age gave us the PN junction diode, the way you deal with the flyback arc created by a large solenoid like that on the starter, is to use a really large contactor that can survive the arcing longer. The modern way is to install a flyback diode, to give that reverse voltage a path to the other side of the coil right where the voltage is being generated.
The Starter Solenoid only pulls about 11-12A, well within the capability of K1 up in the PDP and the wiring to the frame relay. One or two large diodes hooked up to the starter solenoid coil(reverse polarity to normal voltage application), can take care of the flyback discharge. About the only need for the frame relay in a modern vehicle would be to allow a thermal sw to control/protect an overheated starter. I will ultimately get rid of my aux start relay as I like things as simple as possible…
K2(ign) K11(alt excite) and K24(starter lockout) should energize, and the oil light in the dash should light.
Then I ask what goes click when you push the start button?
K1(starter) in the power panel, and the Aux start relay down on the frame should go click when you push the button.
If the 3 relays and oil light come on the oil pressure sw is OK(should go out when the engine starts
). K1 going click when you push the start button proves that.K1 provides 24V down to that large aux relay on the frame. The ground side of the frame relay goes thru a thermal sw plug to ground. Some starters have thermal switches in them, so that plug is connected to the front of the starter motor. On starters that don’t have the thermal sw, that plug has a jumper in it and is usually taped back into the wire harness.
with an ohm meter measure from each of the small terminals(relay coil terminals) on the frame relay to ground. Don’t remove any wires, you don’t have to. The main ground point is right there on the front of the starter motor(has a strap from there to frame), so is a great place to measure resistance to.
if you have high resistance/open measured to ground from either small terminal, that thermal sw or jumpered thermal sw plug or the wire may be bad. It connects to that main starter ground point.
if you have a low resistance path to ground on one frame relay small terminal and a high resistance/open path on the other, the frame relay coil may be bad.
if you have a low resistance path to ground on both small terminals(one a little higher than the other) then this would be a normal condition, as one terminal is connected to ground thru the thermal sw/plug, and the second terminal is connected to the first thru the relays coil winding.
if everything in the cab is working and K1 goes click when you push the starter button, 24V should be reaching the frame relay, kind of like the ground test I described above, if you see 24V on both small terminals with the start button pressed, there probably is no path to ground. If you only see it on one small terminal, the frame relay coil may be bad. If you don’t see any voltage or really low voltage, K1 may have bad contacts or you may have a bad connection between K1 and the frame relay(frame relay pulls more current than the wiring resistance can deliver).
That 100A aux start relay is really an old school way of dealing with a large solenoid coil. When you de-energize a coil, the collapsing magnetic field creates a reverse or flyback voltage spike. Back before the transistor age gave us the PN junction diode, the way you deal with the flyback arc created by a large solenoid like that on the starter, is to use a really large contactor that can survive the arcing longer. The modern way is to install a flyback diode, to give that reverse voltage a path to the other side of the coil right where the voltage is being generated.
The Starter Solenoid only pulls about 11-12A, well within the capability of K1 up in the PDP and the wiring to the frame relay. One or two large diodes hooked up to the starter solenoid coil(reverse polarity to normal voltage application), can take care of the flyback discharge. About the only need for the frame relay in a modern vehicle would be to allow a thermal sw to control/protect an overheated starter. I will ultimately get rid of my aux start relay as I like things as simple as possible…
HA Easy was yesterday !!!! After just 4 hours the problem is fixed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For now anyways IGN. tested good k2/k11/k24 all good relay on frame clicks got power coming in got power going to starter !!
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTT nothing on small post closest to block(ignition) nothing and the fun begins !
They bring the inbound ignition wire under the big 24v lug real tight to everything and everything is zip tied to death and finally through being a contorsitionist my finger blindly feels the wire going into the small ign post is just hanging in the terminal end and that is wire 26 .
It says on the metal band ! And working from the top its a real JOY to try and get any kind of a (( 3/8 ))) anything on that nut without touching the magic turn the engine over and make me shiet my pants a half a dozen times to the point .
I have to make a cardboard sleave to shield anything that got near and metal and at the end o it all i had to use my 1/4 inch flexshaft (about 18 in long ) that you have to wrap in tape also to get the little 3/ 8 nut off and back on then trying to get my hands back in there to crimp a new extension off the original wire 26
So now its fixed and thanks for all the help
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTT nothing on small post closest to block(ignition) nothing and the fun begins !
They bring the inbound ignition wire under the big 24v lug real tight to everything and everything is zip tied to death and finally through being a contorsitionist my finger blindly feels the wire going into the small ign post is just hanging in the terminal end and that is wire 26 .
It says on the metal band ! And working from the top its a real JOY to try and get any kind of a (( 3/8 ))) anything on that nut without touching the magic turn the engine over and make me shiet my pants a half a dozen times to the point .
I have to make a cardboard sleave to shield anything that got near and metal and at the end o it all i had to use my 1/4 inch flexshaft (about 18 in long ) that you have to wrap in tape also to get the little 3/ 8 nut off and back on then trying to get my hands back in there to crimp a new extension off the original wire 26
So now its fixed and thanks for all the help
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life is about timing... after chiseling away 40 lbs of rubber goop off the auxiliary starter solenoid and discovering much corrosion and split wires . I opted to replace it . OEMs are very expensive .. Napa St88 appears to be MIA.. a cross reference revealed a Cole Hersee (pictured ) would be the trick... since I am not a electric guy at all , I found a schematic of what appears to be the wire/cable hook up on the OEM aux solenoid.. the Cole Hersee has no markings at all.. Google University inferes that big wire(battery) into solenoid the big wire out to starter.. as for the smaller wires , makes no difference where they are attached.... hmmmmm?... thoughts, suggestions ?
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