FireFighterHill
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Would it be advisable to use some LocTite on the bolt?
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Problem spin off oil filter adapter
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baxter
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Back in the summer i also put on the spin on adaptors. After installing I started the truck and and no leaks Then I took it on a little drive to go get a burger when I got home it was leaking. I removed everything and retightend and it has been leak free ever since even when we got into the single digits its been fine.
Vaughn
Vaughn
dabtl
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From reading the posts on this, what may be happening is the alloy shrinks a bit and the gasket is compressed on installation. That may be solved by a re-torque of the adapter.
At 56 degrees here, that is unlikely to happen.
At 56 degrees here, that is unlikely to happen.
bguy193
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REPORTING BACK.........
Took the deuce for a good run today and had no leaks from the adapters although the temp here wasn't super low. When the temp drops super low again maybe I'll try again.
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wdbtchr
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I was thinking that myself, my stragety has always been it gets thread locker or anti sieze.
But what do I know?
jatonka
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I advise against threadlocker on the hex nipples, there is no trouble with the nipple coming unscrewed. The settlement into the gasket is the situation, and you certainly want to be able to retorque if they do ever begin to seep. I have no chance of knowing who did and who didn't, actually use a torque wrench and 1 1/4" socket when they did the initial install, but it does make a difference. JT
Billy Bobbed
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The ones from westfolk are 1 1/16 socket.I would not use lock tight on the threads,just retorque to 60 or 65ft lbs.Its the gaskets that are the problem.
FireFighterHill
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I have both a Foot pounds and Inch pounds torque wrench for times when proper torque is essential. No tool box is complete with out them.
Before I got them I had trouble with a sway bar end link coming loose, the manual called for a really high number I had to almost stand on the wrench to get it to click. No more troubles since then.
Before I got them I had trouble with a sway bar end link coming loose, the manual called for a really high number I had to almost stand on the wrench to get it to click. No more troubles since then.
wdbtchr
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I guess it's because I'm old but most of my torque wrenches are the beam type. I didn't even own a "clicker" until about a year ago, I needed an inch pound in a tight place so I broke down and got one. One advantage of the beam type is they are so long you don't have to work so hard to get the high torques you some times need.
I haven't had any problem with my adapters, but I did torque them originally.
I haven't had any problem with my adapters, but I did torque them originally.
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With a paper gasket, the problem could very well be the shrinkage of the aluminum vs cast iron.
Aluminum expands/contracts: 0.0000123 inches/inch-degree F (12.3 micro-inches)
Cast iron expands/contracts: 0.0000059 inches/inch-degree F (5.9 micro-inches)
The difference is: 0.0000064 inches/inch-degree F (6.4 micro-inches)
A really really cold day might be -40F, and when the engine is very hot, the oil might be at 200F... That is a difference of 240F, so let say it is 300F just to add a margin for error.
300F x 0.0000064 inches/inch-degree F = 1.92 thousandths of an inch/inch
What that means is that the approximately 1 inch thick aluminum adapter will pull away from the cast iron about 2 thousandths of an inch for a 300F change in temperature.... frozen arctic to fully warmed up engine.
But wait, don't start pointing accusing fingers yet!
In designing a plate like this, you have a lot of ways you can go.
One design method would be to count on deforming the adapter plate, and stretching the adapter nipple, a few thousandths of an inch to account for the differential expansion of the dissimilar metals. This can be done by specifying a torque that is just high enough to provide the necessary deformation, but low enough not to permanently deform the casting, or stretch the nipple. Or, it can be done by leaving a small gap between the plate and the threaded land (on the filter casting) and specifying a torque that closes the gap.... thus assuring the necessary spring tension, without the possibility of permanently deforming of the adapter, or the nipple.
Another way is to use a compliant gasket, such as a properly sized flat rubber gasket, or O-ring, and move the entire shrinkage problem into the O-rings court... tighten until tight, and you are done.... however space shuttles, and Morton-Thiocol come to mind...O-rings shrink when they get cold too!
The deuce engineers handled the problem by using a cheap paper gasket, and relying on the springiness of the center bolt, and the lid of the canister to keep the necessary pressure on the gasket.
JT, and Westfolk might want to chime in on how they handled the design issue.
-Chuck
Aluminum expands/contracts: 0.0000123 inches/inch-degree F (12.3 micro-inches)
Cast iron expands/contracts: 0.0000059 inches/inch-degree F (5.9 micro-inches)
The difference is: 0.0000064 inches/inch-degree F (6.4 micro-inches)
A really really cold day might be -40F, and when the engine is very hot, the oil might be at 200F... That is a difference of 240F, so let say it is 300F just to add a margin for error.
300F x 0.0000064 inches/inch-degree F = 1.92 thousandths of an inch/inch
What that means is that the approximately 1 inch thick aluminum adapter will pull away from the cast iron about 2 thousandths of an inch for a 300F change in temperature.... frozen arctic to fully warmed up engine.
But wait, don't start pointing accusing fingers yet!
In designing a plate like this, you have a lot of ways you can go.
One design method would be to count on deforming the adapter plate, and stretching the adapter nipple, a few thousandths of an inch to account for the differential expansion of the dissimilar metals. This can be done by specifying a torque that is just high enough to provide the necessary deformation, but low enough not to permanently deform the casting, or stretch the nipple. Or, it can be done by leaving a small gap between the plate and the threaded land (on the filter casting) and specifying a torque that closes the gap.... thus assuring the necessary spring tension, without the possibility of permanently deforming of the adapter, or the nipple.
Another way is to use a compliant gasket, such as a properly sized flat rubber gasket, or O-ring, and move the entire shrinkage problem into the O-rings court... tighten until tight, and you are done.... however space shuttles, and Morton-Thiocol come to mind...O-rings shrink when they get cold too!
The deuce engineers handled the problem by using a cheap paper gasket, and relying on the springiness of the center bolt, and the lid of the canister to keep the necessary pressure on the gasket.
JT, and Westfolk might want to chime in on how they handled the design issue.
-Chuck
rz14rt
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Design review
Stumps, you are right on with your analysis. There is enough theoretical potential for expansion issues and surely enough reported trouble in the field to warrent a quick design review by the suppliers.
I also agree that the expansion issue may have been delt with in the aftermarket designs. We just do not know, but a broad statement that there is no issue with the aluminium seems a little thin given the number of folks on this site that have had leakage problems.
The Engineers for the Govornment design had the advantage of validation testing (for sure cold-cycle testing among other durability tests) in addition to thier theoretical analysis. While such testing is standard Engineering practice in any serial production, it is just not feasable for our low volume aftermarket needs. That makes the reports of issues on this site very valuable input to manufacturers who strive to continally improve thier products as I know they do. Thanks to all; SS rocks!
Stumps, you are right on with your analysis. There is enough theoretical potential for expansion issues and surely enough reported trouble in the field to warrent a quick design review by the suppliers.
I also agree that the expansion issue may have been delt with in the aftermarket designs. We just do not know, but a broad statement that there is no issue with the aluminium seems a little thin given the number of folks on this site that have had leakage problems.
The Engineers for the Govornment design had the advantage of validation testing (for sure cold-cycle testing among other durability tests) in addition to thier theoretical analysis. While such testing is standard Engineering practice in any serial production, it is just not feasable for our low volume aftermarket needs. That makes the reports of issues on this site very valuable input to manufacturers who strive to continally improve thier products as I know they do. Thanks to all; SS rocks!
Aluminum has been used successfully with cast iron for decades. It is definitely a good thing. I am fully in favor of using aluminum in this application.
... however....
I don't think paper/fiber gaskets are necessarily a good idea. And I do think that if they are used, some consideration to the expansion issue needs to be done.
In my opinion, a host of sins could be covered over by a nice compliant rubber gasket. I have no doubt that one could be spec'd for this application. I had thought that the gasket from NAPA was just that sort.
-Chuck
... however....
I don't think paper/fiber gaskets are necessarily a good idea. And I do think that if they are used, some consideration to the expansion issue needs to be done.
In my opinion, a host of sins could be covered over by a nice compliant rubber gasket. I have no doubt that one could be spec'd for this application. I had thought that the gasket from NAPA was just that sort.
-Chuck
After reading thru this, I can't help but think the installers may very well not have followed the instructions to the letter.
Some torgued, some didn't. Some retorqued, some didn't.
I torqued & retorgued when I installed mine 3 years ago and have had no problems summer or winter. I used JT's alumnium adapters, followed the directions he provided, and have yet to experience any leaks.
I don't care who's adapters are used, if their directions aren't being followed,then that's where the problems orginate.
Some torgued, some didn't. Some retorqued, some didn't.
I torqued & retorgued when I installed mine 3 years ago and have had no problems summer or winter. I used JT's alumnium adapters, followed the directions he provided, and have yet to experience any leaks.
I don't care who's adapters are used, if their directions aren't being followed,then that's where the problems orginate.
JasonS
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I torqued once per directions; it leaked. When it warms up and is time for an oil change I can retorque or try to find a rubber o-ring.After reading thru this, I can't help but think the installers may very well not have followed the instructions to the letter.
Some torgued, some didn't. Some retorqued, some didn't.
I torqued & retorgued when I installed mine 3 years ago and have had no problems summer or winter. I used JT's alumnium adapters, followed the directions he provided, and have yet to experience any leaks.
I don't care who's adapters are used, if their directions aren't being followed,then that's where the problems orginate.
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Billy Bobbed
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Im all in for an O-ring design,take the gasket ring off the bottom and cut a grove for an O-ring.
Billy Bobbed
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After I retorqued the adaptors to 65ft lbs still no leaks.