Re-Powering The Deuce With A 5-Ton LDS-465-1A Engine

[54reo]

Looks great! Very well planned out and executed! Thank you for keeping us up to date.

 

[houdel]

Awesome! I'm amazed that your prelube pump put out that much pressure. What are the thread types on the pump? From your pics, they look to be NPT.

 

[OD_Coyote]

Darn - Now I want to install a LDS engine in my truck
I guess I will add this to my deuce dream sheet.
Nice work!!!

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Sorry --- No hard numbers on the pre-lube pump and multiple oil pressure gauges yet. The weather has been too bad to go out and play

We had a snow storm yesterday --- just in time for the local Christmas parade. I always haul Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus in back of Rosie in the parade. Yesterday was no exception. Given that the parade was also the shake-down run for the new engine and all of the other modifications I was as nervous as a moose in a jerky factory. Wouldn't it have been great had Santa's ride broke down in the middle of the parade!

When we installed the engine we moved the temperature sensor for the electric radiator fan from the intake manifold to the bottom radiator hose. During the parade I learned that moving the sensor causes the fan to come on at 200 degrees instead of 190. The benefit is that the recovery time is much shorter -- fan doesn't run near as long once it comes on.

About half way through the parade, when the temperature went over 190 I started sweating. I just "knew" that something was wrong with the fan and in about five minutes Mr & Ms Claus were going to be walking. But lo and behold @ 200 degrees the green light on the dash came on signaling that the fan was on. The temp dropped to 180, the "fan-on" light went off, and Santa was never the wiser.

After the parade I stopped by a friends house for about 30 minutes. I let Rosie run. When It came time to leave I noticed that there wasn't even one spot of black on the new fallen snow under the truck.

In one of the pictures you can see where the radiator had been over filled and was finding it's proper level.

Some of my friends say they are sending more pictures of the parade but nothing has arrived yet.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Great pics! How does the dual air intake mushrooms work, or is one ornimental?

 

[alphadeltaromeo]

You said, "In case that didn't tip my hand, we started the new LDS engine today. I'm amazed as to how much quieter it is compared to my old LDT engine and also how much more throaty it sounds. Several guys in the shop said it sounds more like a Mack that a Multi."

What about the power? What difference have you noticed so far?

 

[SasquatchSanta]

I hate to admit it because I know that SS is an anti-bling society but the second muchroom is indeed ornimental. I personally like the way it looks with the dual stacks.

The second stack is not. It isn't hooked up yet but will be by this time next week. I felt the single muffler "might" be causing some restrictions for the stock LDT engine so when the LDS went in I elected to go with a second stack and a well plumbed cross-over pipe. I'm anxious to hear how different the duals make the engine sound.

It's been so slick and snowy I've been afraid to put my foot in the pump hard enough to see what the power factror is. A report will follow as soon as the snow pack is off the roads. There is a steep hill on HWY 53 about ten miles south of here that the old LDT had a hard time pulling in 5th without losing a lot of RPMs. It will be a good test.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Houdel Sez:

Awesome! I'm amazed that your prelube pump put out that much pressure. What are the thread types on the pump? From your pics, they look to be NPT.

Yes --- The threads are standard NPT. We were able to clean up the old threads and salvage enough turns to get it to hold. (Red locktite to the rescue).

I don't know how much pressure the pump will create. I've had the gauge that reads the pressures between the oil pump and the filters up to 100 PSI. I'm a little afraid to apply too much pressure. What I've been doing is pushing the pre-lube pump button until the main oil gauge (@ # 6 rod) reaches 25 PSI then quickly pushing the starter button. Once pressure is built by the pre-lub pump the oil pump will maintain the pressure while the engine is cranking.

Earlier I reported that the pre-lube pump requires 30 seconds. That was in error. It's more like 30 seconds required to fill the filter canisters, oil cooler and gallery.

Tomorrow may be another story as tonight is the first night that it's been parked outside instead of in a heated building. It may get down to zero tonight and I don't know exactly that all I've got plugged in. Today I ran all the "plug-in" heater cords up into the cab where they will eventually be terminated into a junction box located behind the passengers seat. More on that later but --- anyway --- I didn't get a chance to label the cords. Hopefully I've got the front freeze plug block heater and both oil pan heaters plugged in. I've got a 250 watt and a 150 watt oil pan heater, one on each side of the drain, that should keep the oil easily flowing for the pump.

 

[cranetruck]

Ernie, there is a pressure regulator on the engine, located below the turbo and you should not have to worry about exceeding about 70 psi ever.

If you want to make use of your second mushroom, install a fuel burning heater and get rid of the hot water heater (which really isn't good for your part of the world, anyway)...imagine starting the heater and have heat within one minute.

Like your pan heaters, what brand are they?

 

[OPCOM]

Did you plumb the prelube pump into the pre-filter port? I ask because mine is plumbed post-filter and I've been suggested to change it.

 

[cranetruck]

Did you plumb the prelube pump into the pre-filter port? I ask because mine is plumbed post-filter and I've been suggested to change it.

"Post filter" will pump unfiltered oil thru your system, probably not a good idea.

 

[gimpyrobb]

That, and the filters is what takes time to fill.

 

[Armada]

Looking great!!!

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Yesterday the roads lost enough snow-pack so I could take Rosie for a run up one of the local hills to see how the power compares.

In short --- It was a "foot-in-the-pump" and "hips-in-the-wind" run!

There is a nearby hill (the Gheen Hill) that I've mentioned previously. The old LDT engine would lose 4 to 5 hundred rpm on the hill. The new LDS will climb the hill with no rpm loss! Pre-turbo EGTs were approaching 1100 at the top of the hill. My objective was to be able to climb the Gheen Hill in 5th gear without losing RPMs --- Mission Accomplished!

I should note that the LDT-D engine that we replaced appeared to be healthy. (It was rebuilt in 198. The power difference between the LDT and LDS engines is appreciable

We hooked up the second stack yesterday. I like the way the duals sound. I still can't get over how much quieter the new engine is. I had plans to spray the firewall and under cab with Dyna spray but couldn't get the damned stuff to come out of the can. I'm going to write Dyan Spray a nasty letter.

As previously mentioned, I installed three oil pressure gauges so I could safely tinker with the oil filter bypass valve setting. I'm not sure that any tinkering is required. It’s been reported that the multi is bad about by-passing the filters at normal RPMs and normal temperatures.

The ambient temperature yesterday afternoon was 16 degrees. The engine was running at 180 degrees. At 2,300 RPM the following oil pressures were observed:

Between the oil pump and the filters: 88 PSI
Immediately after the filters: 75 PSI
At number 6 rod: 62 PSI

I'm running 5 micron 1970 spin-on filters that are rated at twice the capacity of the standard deuce filters (twice the oil pump capacity). Perhaps the stock filters are creating more resistance and being by-passed but unless I'm missing something, they don't appear to be by-passing with the larger 1970 filters. If I'm missing something there someone please enlighten me.

I'm attaching some more pictures. The Pre-Lube Pump is controlled by the black button on the left of the starter button --- left of the steering column. The reason for two key switches is that one is to lock out the ether button. The other activates the starter switch.

I've moved the bright light switch over to the right of the instrument cluster. This was done to make room for another (oil temp) gauge in the cluster. There are three vertical lights to the right of the cluster. The top light is the bright light indicator. The middle light comes on when the fan turns on. The bottom is a warning light that indicates when the fan has been manually switched off.

The far-right, bottom of dash, oil pressure gauge reads pressure between the oil pump and the filters. The one next to it reads pressure immediately after the filters. The gauge in the lower left of the cluster reads pressure at number six rod. As soon as I sort out whether or not the filters are being bypassed I'm going to remove the two bottom of dash gauges.

The under dash heater is now "defroster" only. An auxiliary heater has been added under the passenger’s seat. The combination pyro and boost gauge is the round gauge by the steering column. A wig-wag has also been installed by the driver’s side windshield wiper motor.

Concerning the pre-lube pump … a picture is attached showing the way it is plumbed. The pump injects oil into the pre-filter oil port (drain port). The Amsoil by-pass filter is fed from the post filter oil sampling port.

This morning the temperature was zero. The front, and rear, 600 watt freeze plug block heaters and the 250 watt (rear) and 150 watt (front) oil pan heater pads were plugged in all night. The battery heater pads were left off as well as the float charger mainly because without a junction box (coming soon) I had no place to plug everything in.

When I went to start the engine this morning the pre-lube pump required approx 60 seconds instead of the usual 30 seconds to establish 25 pounds of oil pressure at number six rod. A quick push of the starter button along with a VERY quick touch of the ether button and it sprang to life. I don’t think I would have needed the ether but I would rather give a light touch of ether and avoid prolonged cranking.

One of the nice things about having the second, drivers-side stack is that you can see if you're making smoke in the driver’s rear view mirror. When it's really cold all you see is a solid white vapor trail/contrail. It’s suppose to get down to 20 below tonight

 

[cranetruck]

..........
The ambient temperature yesterday afternoon was 16 degrees. The engine was running at 180 degrees. At 2,300 RPM the following oil pressures were observed:

Between the oil pump and the filters: 88 PSI
Immediately after the filters: 75 PSI
At number 6 rod: 62 PSI

I'm running 5 micron 1970 spin-on filters that are rated at twice the capacity of the standard deuce filters (twice the oil pump capacity). Perhaps the stock filters are creating more resistance and being by-passed but unless I'm missing something.....

Are you saying that the pressure across your filters is 13 psi? If that's true, then it won't be long before 15 psi is reached and the bypass regulator will start doing its job.
During my preliminary measurements, I came up with about 6 psi for my stock filter set-up. A lower pressure differential will get you a better filter performance.
I'm using stock filters and a bypass filter for the -2 engine and I agree with you that the bigger multi is quiter than the deuce engine, but the (cooling) fan noise is very pronounced on mine. I particularily like the spooling down sound from the turbo when letting up the "gas"....

 

[SasquatchSanta]

cranetruck wrote:

Are you saying that the pressure across your filters is 13 psi? If that's true, then it won't be long before 15 psi is reached and the bypass regulator will start doing its job.

Yes, and I assumed since the differential pressure was under 15 psi "all was well". Until you mentioned it, it hadn't dawned on me that when the filters start getting dirty the differential pressure will increase and the bypassing will start.

So now what? Is there any way to tell when the bypass valve starts opening? I don't mean to sound dense but I've got a mental block in this area.

The 6 psi differential with the stock filters doesn't make sense. With the higher flow capacities of the 1970 filters one would think the differential pressure would be less with the 1970s.

Should I throw a small shim in the bypass valve?

I was thinking about eliminating the two extra oil pressure gauges as soon as I did some experimenting but perhaps I should keep them as they will indicate if the filters need changing <???>

With all the plumbing, pan work, check valve, wiring etc., installing a pre-lube pump is no small project. In retrospect, considering where I live, (it's 20-below this morning), I feel I made the right decision by going with the pre-lube pump, spin-on drain back 1970 filters, and oil pan heaters. IMHO, having remote filters in cold weather or even anti-drain back spin-on filters in cold weather is less than desirable. My logic is to keep the oil warm in the pan with the heaters and use the pump to fill the system before stat-up. It works --- perfectly. With the addition of Amsoil by-pass filter I may be erring on the side of overkill BUT, after 5 hours of running the engine oil is as clear as it was when it was installed. So far none of the typical black diesel oil.

Having said all of this, if I lived in a warmer climate I'd be tempted skip the pre-lube pump and go with Jatonka's anti-drain back spin on filters and a good remote by-pass filter OR a remote main filter AND bypass filter. As I understand it, Jatonka's system (which I almost bought) doesn't drain back and therefore gives quick (3 to 5 second) oil pressure. The disadvantage (once again, as I understand it) is the 25 micron factor. A good remote bypass filter would solve that problem. In warmer climates, that might be a whole heck of a lot simpler and less costly solution.

cranetruck wrote:

Like your pan heaters, what brand are they?

The only thing I know about them is that I got them at CarQuest. One it a 250W and the other is 150W. I went with two separate pads so I could select how much heat I wanted to apply. I "think" the 150 watt unit and one of the two 600 watt freeze plug block heaters will "maintain" sufficient temp when plugged-in immediately upon shut-down. The 250 watt unit and second 600 watt block heater can be added to the mix when starting out cold on or below zero days --- like today. The goal is a dependable 40-BelowZero Deuce.

If I had it to do over again I would have installed in-pan heating elements. I fear the heating pads are too exposed to the elements and may not hold up. Hopefully, I'm mistaken --- time will tell. I don’t know what I was thinking --- I had the pan off and installed plumbing for the pre-lube pump and bypass filter return. We could have just as easily installed the plumbing for the oil pan heaters.

cranetruck wrote:

If you want to make use of your second mushroom, install a fuel burning heater and get rid of the hot water heater (which really isn't good for your part of the world, anyway)...imagine starting the heater and have heat within one minute.

I agree that a fuel burning heater would be superior. In time, I may remove the now modified under dash M35 heater and install it in an M37. Hopefully, by that time I will have learned enough about the oil burner heater to be comfortable with tackling an installation. It would have to go under the dash. I don't want to compromise engine compartment space.

 

[cranetruck]

Ernie, with a bypass filter, you don't need a fine micron full flow oil filter, the stock 20-25 micron is just fine and wil produce a faster "time to oil pressure". As a matter of fact, the differential pressure across the stock filters may have been less than 6 psi, I have to check my records.

I have the stock filter set-up, which will not change, and the bypass filter keeps the oil clear.

The bypass valve, as I now understand it, is a regulating valve and will keep the diff pressure at 15 psi, with some oil flowing thru the filters at all times, so when you get to 15 psi, that's it.

 

[cattlerepairman]

If I had it to do over again I would have installed in-pan heating elements. I fear the heating pads are too exposed to the elements and may not hold up. Hopefully, I'm mistaken --- time will tell. I don’t know what I was thinking --- I had the pan off and installed plumbing for the pre-lube pump and bypass filter return. We could have just as easily installed the plumbing for the oil pan heaters.

No, you do not want in-pan heating elements. I have seen quite a few stick-on pan heaters burn themselves out. The plastic cover melts, burns and drips and the paint catches fire and burns off the oil pan. Unless you have a thick oil trail running down the side of the engine, that is usually the extent of the damage. Takes a scraper and a paint can to fix.
You want combustible fluids and electric heating elements (especially household voltage powered ones) well separated...

 

[SasquatchSanta]

cranetruck sez:

The bypass valve, as I now understand it, is a regulating valve and will keep the diff pressure at 15 psi, with some oil flowing thru the filters at all times, so when you get to 15 psi, that's it.

Does this mean when 15 PSI is reached ALL the oil bypasses the filters?

cattlerepairman sez:

You want combustible fluids and electric heating elements (especially household voltage powered ones) well separated...

Thanks for the insight

 

[cranetruck]

Does this mean when 15 PSI is reached ALL the oil bypasses the filters?

No, but enough will take the bypass route to keep the pressure differential at 15 psi.