Rear output PTO?

[Big Z]

The neighbor stopped by today while I was working on my M35A2 wo/w. He is a farmer and rancher, and brought up the idea of putting a feeder on the back of a deuce and asked about PTOs on them. Currently, he powers a feeder wagon on a trailer with a tractor's PTO. I don't know much about it, I am just under the impression that the pto on a deuce only has forward output. I've not been around deuces with PTOs though, and was wondering if anyone knew about getting pto shaft output to the rear?

Okay, now my interest is in Tcase PTO RPMs. Anybody know how to calculate it? Is it just engine RPMS/front transmission gear ratio? Or is there more reduction from the tcase/pto too?

 

[tie6044]

There is a pto that mounts on the back of the t-case and faces towards the rear. Found on fire trucks and fuel/water tanker trucks. There is a dual output one that mounts on the tranny but they are very tough to find.

 

[Big Z]

Interesting..I did a search on google and found this truck:

 

[Big Z]

Thanks for the boost, I will start looking into those. A straight truck would really be more convenient for feeding for him, and that picture above...perhaps I should look into same for 900 series trucks as well.

 

[JasonS]

Tractor PTOs spin the opposite direction of the transfer case PTO. That and the fact that the deuce PTO is not live limits their usefulness.

 

[av8or]

The pto's that were used on dumps (at least m817 ) have rear faceing output shaft that rotates both ways. A little more truck under that feed cart might be nice.

 

[gringeltaube]

The pto's that were used on dumps (at least m817 ) have rear faceing output shaft that rotates both ways.
...........

Not, if we are talking about the dual output transmission PTO.


G.

 

[av8or]

Not, if we are talking about the dual output transmission PTO.


G.

I don't mean to be arguementive, But the dual output PTO's from my m817's go both ways both front and rear shafts and can operate independly of each other as to rotation. That gives the power down. would post a picture if I could.

 

[gringeltaube]

That would be very interesting to see! Isn't the PTO input gear engaged to the transm. countershaft, on the 5tons? From there down you have, selectable: two N, two FW speeds + 1 REVERSE, for the front (winch)output shaft. But the rear output shaft -when engaged - is powered in one direction only (should be CW when looking at it, from rear to front). And YES, both can be shifted completely independently.

I know these PTO's pretty well... not so the M817 in detail. Would like to see pics posted, of the basic components.

G.

 

[m16ty]

The m939 trucks have a trans PTO that is only rear output and is single speed, in one direction. The only thing it's used for in OEM configuration is to power a hyd pump for the front winch. I will add that the OEM hyd pump has more than enough capacity to run other hyd driven items also (around 25 GPM at governed speed).

The M939 trucks also had a t-case PTO available. I assume it will turn "backwards" by running the trans in reverse but to be honest, I've never tried it. It is shiftable in and out.

It should be noted that all the 800 series 5-tons I've seen have a non-shiftable t-case PTO. It turns any time the trans is in gear and the foot clutch is engaged. The wrecker uses the t-case PTO to power the wrecker bed and rear winch. Shifting is accomplished by use of a power divider that has neutral, power to the hyd pump for the crane, or power to the rear winch. There may be some other applications that use a t-case PTO on these trucks that are shiftable but the wrecker t-case PTO is coupled to the t-case all the time.

 

[m16ty]

Tractor PTOs spin the opposite direction of the transfer case PTO.

Not if you put the trans in reverse.

I don't mean to be arguementive, But the dual output PTO's from my m817's go both ways both front and rear shafts and can operate independly of each other as to rotation. That gives the power down. would post a picture if I could.

That doesn't give you power down. If you spin a hyd pump backwards, it will do nothing but burn up if you run it backwards very long. Power down is accomplished in the valving and has nothing to do with PTO rotation.

I'm not saying they don't make one because I haven't seen them all but I've never seen a dual output PTO that the rear output could change direction of rotation.

 

[Big Z]

If I'm absorbing any of this correctly, 900 series trucks have a rear output PTO that you can disengage, right? Do they spin the same direction as a tractor's pto? And what are the PTO shaft speeds? The old 4020 john deere powers the feed wagon now and hasn't near the power of the 900 series, but has a 540 pto (probably at ~1900rpm??).

And being an automatic, whilst in the 900 series, after engaging the PTO can you just take the park brake off and drive with the PTO running? Or a "safety" you can remove to do so? Naturally the feeder needs to be cranking while you're driving.. I may need to do some more cruising in the 5 ton forums. I think it'd be great for the neighbor to have such a setup heeheeeheeehehehe..the green disease can apparently be spread by eyesight alone.

 

[59apache]

it depends on how much power you need...
for shorttime use with little power i would use a hydraulicpump, tank, oil cooler and a hydraulicmotor like this:

 

[roux563]

A buddy of mine wanted to mount a hydraulic pump on his M35A2 w/ Winch. He wanted to mount a rollback deck on this truck. I spent quite a bit of time researching what it would take. I found the stock PTO (as discussed here for fuel and water trucks), for about $1200, and they are few and far between. I talked to another buddy who runs a truck shop, and he said he could get a new one for quite a bit cheaper, like maybe $400-$500. All I needed was the transmission model (seems there are 2 used) to determine the proper one. After all this work, the guy realized the truck was too tall for the bed to touch the ground.

 

[gringeltaube]

........................I've never seen a dual output PTO that the rear output could change direction of rotation.

.... guess we won't, unless the engine would run backwards...!
The single and dual output transmission-PTO's (for Deuces and M809 series 5tons) are basically all the same parts and functions. There is only one model rear (auxiliary) drive unit for both, 2.5 and 5tons - and it is driven off of the reverse- shaft/-gear, which is in constant mesh with the input gear.


G.

 

[73m819]

I don't mean to be arguementive, But the dual output PTO's from my m817's go both ways both front and rear shafts and can operate independly of each other as to rotation. That gives the power down. would post a picture if I could.

Im am NOT BEING arguementive, just stating HOW things HAVE TO work,.
The REAR output shaft on the 5t dual output pto ONLY TURNS IN ONE DIRECTION under driven load (will rotate either direction by hand when not engaged), it DRIVES a hyd. pump, CONTROL VALVEING controls the power up/down, if the pump turned in a direction other then the correct one, it would be drawing oil from the operating system and PRESSUREIZING the oil resvior which would NOT be a GOOD THING.

Sorry about the spelling, Google Spell Check does not seem to work with the non-upgrade CHANGE

 

[av8or]

Thanks Ron for the gentler treatment. Guess you guys are right! one way only


Big Z, ON m939 PTO turn counter clockwise when viewed from rear of truck at engine RPM At least on my m932a1.

 

[m16ty]

If I'm absorbing any of this correctly, 900 series trucks have a rear output PTO that you can disengage, right? Do they spin the same direction as a tractor's pto? And what are the PTO shaft speeds? The old 4020 john deere powers the feed wagon now and hasn't near the power of the 900 series, but has a 540 pto (probably at ~1900rpm??).

And being an automatic, whilst in the 900 series, after engaging the PTO can you just take the park brake off and drive with the PTO running? Or a "safety" you can remove to do so? Naturally the feeder needs to be cranking while you're driving.. I may need to do some more cruising in the 5 ton forums. I think it'd be great for the neighbor to have such a setup heeheeeheeehehehe..the green disease can apparently be spread by eyesight alone.

The t-case PTO will spin one direction with the trans in forward gear and the opposite direction with the trans in reverse (I'd have to go out and look at the truck to tell you what direction it spins in which gear). With the M939 trucks, the engine pretty much has to be ran at governed speed for the PTO to operate properly because of the auto trans. You have 5 PTO speeds with the t-case PTO. You put the trans in whatever gear you want and that will determine the speed of the PTO. Yes, you can drive the truck while the PTO is engaged.

If I was going to put a feed bed on the truck, I'd consider having the PTO power a hyd pump and have all the bed functions driven hydraulically. We've got a M939 converted into a lime spreader truck and that's how the bed is powered. We are running the stock trans PTO and hyd pump to run the bed.

 

[rmgill]

It just so happens I have one of these rare double ended PTO's on my Deuce. I've been contemplating the addition of a hydraulic system for a dump bed and/or crane as well as hydraulic tools for some time. One of MANY back burner projects.

 

[JasonS]

Not if you put the trans in reverse..

Not going to work if you want use it withe the common implement PTO speeds