remote start cranking time?

[Guruman]

So... I'm playing with an idea to remotely control pretty much any switch in my LMTV with my phone, using some tech hardware I bought to "home automate" my RV. More on that later if it works.

In the mean time. One of the first functions I want to sort out is turning on the master power, and remote starting the engine. Turning on the master power is easy. Next is starting the engine.

I typically hold down the red button until the engine starts... but the system I'm using does not replicate that "hold the button to activate the circuit" very well. I can press it once to start cranking, and again to stop cranking.. .but I do not like that much... seems wrong.

The other option I have is to press the button to start cranking, and have it stop at a given interval. 1 second... 5, 10, 30, whatever.

My question is this: Does the "crank" signal get shutoff automatically once the engine starts? I thought I read something about once the oil pressure climbs the start circuit is disabled, and the alternator begins charging (probably from something @Ronmar posted) . Can this be relied upon to stop cranking the engine? Or will that turn it to a pile of ash somehow? Is there another signal I can use to tell the system "it's started, stop cranking the starter now"?

 

[NDT]

You are asking to grind the teeth off your flywheel or starter gear. Just sit there with your thumb over the alarm like the rest of us and monitor the gauges and listen for knocking. I am not trying to be a smart ass even though this post may come off that way.

 

[Guruman]

You are asking to grind the teeth off your flywheel or starter gear. Just sit there with your thumb over the alarm like the rest of us and monitor the gauges and listen for knocking. I am not trying to be a smart ass even though this post may come off that way.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to avoid, but at the same time I'm getting tot he age where walking out to the shop, climbing up in the cab, starting it, then walking back to the house to keep warm for 30 minutes while the truck warms up is getting tiresome.

I'd much rather open the app on my phone, turn on the master power, and press the start button while I'm still finishing my coffee indoors.

I can do all of that now, but I still need to be able to hear it start, so I know when to let off the start button.

Lots of remote start systems do this, most of the diesel ones tie into the tach signal, which is an option. I'm just fishing for the easiest and laziest way to make it happen.

 

[Ronmar]

So... I'm playing with an idea to remotely control pretty much any switch in my LMTV with my phone, using some tech hardware I bought to "home automate" my RV. More on that later if it works.

In the mean time. One of the first functions I want to sort out is turning on the master power, and remote starting the engine. Turning on the master power is easy. Next is starting the engine.

I typically hold down the red button until the engine starts... but the system I'm using does not replicate that "hold the button to activate the circuit" very well. I can press it once to start cranking, and again to stop cranking.. .but I do not like that much... seems wrong.

The other option I have is to press the button to start cranking, and have it stop at a given interval. 1 second... 5, 10, 30, whatever.

My question is this: Does the "crank" signal get shutoff automatically once the engine starts? I thought I read something about once the oil pressure climbs the start circuit is disabled, and the alternator begins charging (probably from something @Ronmar posted) . Can this be relied upon to stop cranking the engine? Or will that turn it to a pile of ash somehow? Is there another signal I can use to tell the system "it's started, stop cranking the starter now"?

On the A0, K24 is the starter lockout relay. It and K11 get powered when the main sw is turned on, and are de-energized when the oil pressure switch hits 15PSI. This enables the alternator and disables the start button/circuit.

On the A1, K11 does double duty, energized it powers the start circuit, de-energized(at 15PSI oil), it shifts the power from starter ckt to the alternator excite circuit.

NDT has valid concerns, but They start generators remotely/automatically every day, they do however typically have run detection circuits, that either mechanically or electronically detect the RPM as soon as it increases over cranking RPM, to cut the starter.

How long does it take to reach 15PSI typically? How long does it take to fire typically? My 3116 starts right up when its warm1-2 seconds tops, but it takes longer when cold... if I were doing this I would probably set the crank timer to what my typical crank times are. I would also probably add a failsafe timer, like if the oil pressure sw doesn’t open 15 seconds after crank, it opens the ignition circuit and shuts the whole thing down…

 

[Third From Texas]

On the A0, K24 is the starter lockout relay. It and K11 get powered when the main sw is turned on, and are de-energized when the oil pressure switch hits 15PSI. This enables the alternator and disables the start button/circuit.

On the A1, K11 does double duty, energized it powers the start circuit, de-energized(at 15PSI oil), it shifts the power from starter ckt to the alternator excite circuit.

NDT has valid concerns, but They start generators remotely/automatically every day, they do however typically have run detection circuits, that either mechanically or electronically detect the RPM as soon as it increases over cranking RPM, to cut the starter.

How long does it take to reach 15PSI typically? How long does it take to fire typically? My 3116 starts right up when its warm1-2 seconds tops, but it takes longer when cold... if I were doing this I would probably set the crank timer to what my typical crank times are. I would also probably add a failsafe timer, like if the oil pressure sw doesn’t open 15 seconds after crank, it opens the ignition circuit and shuts the whole thing down…

And some trucks are a bit more finicky at starting in cold weather.

How are you going to automate this with a timer?

Your video, ya?

 

[Guruman]

How long does it take to reach 15PSI typically? How long does it take to fire typically? My 3116 starts right up when its warm1-2 seconds tops, but it takes longer when cold...

This is exactly the thing I was trying to solve. I can set it to crank for any length of time, but 2 seconds would work when it's warm, but on a cold start it might take 20. I suppose once I get the ether system sorted, maybe it would be more consistent across the board. It would be a trivial matter to manually or automatically fire the ether before cranking.

I'm also hoping to incorporate a diesel fired coolant heater to help with pre-start in the cold. This would be trivial to control with the same system. Even in a chain of events ... fire coolant heater for 20 minutes, master power on, ether spray, crank for 3 seconds.... notify me that it started when the oil pressure switch activates... then again in a few minutes to let me know it's ready to roll.

There's also some sensors available to make voltages, fuel levels and temps available for monitoring or for triggering events.

 

[Guruman]

And some trucks are a bit more finicky at starting in cold weather.

How are you going to automate this with a timer?

Your video, ya?

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my reason for the question. I had a couple of days last winter, when no amount of cranking would make it start. So, I'm trying to get to a point where eI can setup a "crank until x happens, then stop". I just need to solve for x. Is that 15 psi of OP, or 500 RPM? or ???

It'd be nice if I could count on the existing starter interrupt setup. And I could just activate the red button for a number of seconds and let the 15 psi OPcutoff do the work for me.

I just don't know if that will be too much cranking and as mentioned, strip the teeth off the ring gear.

I guess I need to experiment a bit with holding the red button down longer to see how it behaves. If that's not acceptable, then I'd need to either rely on doing it manually, or dig into how to monitor the oil pressure or RPMs and use that as an input to signal to stop cranking. Holding the button down seems so much easier to figure out....

 

[Third From Texas]

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my reason for the question. I had a couple of days last winter, when no amount of cranking would make it start. So, I'm trying to get to a point where eI can setup a "crank until x happens, then stop". I just need to solve for x. Is that 15 psi of OP, or 500 RPM? or ???

It'd be nice if I could count on the existing starter interrupt setup. And I could just activate the red button for a number of seconds and let the 15 psi OPcutoff do the work for me.

I just don't know if that will be too much cranking and as mentioned, strip the teeth off the ring gear.

I guess I need to experiment a bit with holding the red button down longer to see how it behaves. If that's not acceptable, then I'd need to either rely on doing it manually, or dig into how to monitor the oil pressure or RPMs and use that as an input to signal to stop cranking. Holding the button down seems so much easier to figure out....

By my calculations, if you had spent that 20 minutes each day driving south you'd have resolved the issue of starting in the cold in approximately 65 days.

 

[Skyhawk13205]

So... I'm playing with an idea to remotely control pretty much any switch in my LMTV with my phone, using some tech hardware I bought to "home automate" my RV. More on that later if it works.

In the mean time. One of the first functions I want to sort out is turning on the master power, and remote starting the engine. Turning on the master power is easy. Next is starting the engine.

I typically hold down the red button until the engine starts... but the system I'm using does not replicate that "hold the button to activate the circuit" very well. I can press it once to start cranking, and again to stop cranking.. .but I do not like that much... seems wrong.

The other option I have is to press the button to start cranking, and have it stop at a given interval. 1 second... 5, 10, 30, whatever.

My question is this: Does the "crank" signal get shutoff automatically once the engine starts? I thought I read something about once the oil pressure climbs the start circuit is disabled, and the alternator begins charging (probably from something @Ronmar posted) . Can this be relied upon to stop cranking the engine? Or will that turn it to a pile of ash somehow? Is there another signal I can use to tell the system "it's started, stop cranking the starter now"?

I have installed remote start systems for automotive gas cars. I would assume the principle remains the same.

A remote start module controls the start sequence. Most start systems use alternator voltage to detect a start. Other systems use an output such tach to determine a start. I think most remote start systems can do what you are asking. Some factors to consider are.

engine configuration:

air inlet heater?
High idle?
Exhaust brake warmup.
Either injection?
Extended crank time?

Air inlet heater:most off the shelf remote start systems have a diesel setting that will delay the sequence from ignition to start. The grid heater on a C7 and 3126 are ECM controlled and will cycle depending on the conditions.

High idle: Caterpillar recommends against extended idle times. If idle is required Caterpillar recommends to high idle. A0 require a handle throttle to high idle. A1 require an input to the ECU to command a high idle. From my experience with my A1 everything is happier at high idle.

Exhaust brake warmup:A1 have an option to select warmup to use the pac brake to load the engine to assist in warmup.

Either injection: I have never needed to use the either system but I assume the engine needs to be cranking to disperse either.

Extended crank time: cold weather may require extended crank time, most remote starts have an abort of about 30 seconds.

Cold weather starts and warmup are not a fun experience, I live in Alaska so I am familiar with cold weather. What I am planning is to have a hydronic heater that can warm the coolant enough to open the thermostat prior to start to reduce cold weather starts and not have to depend on a block heater. All I have to do is use a remote start just for the coolant heater. After preheat then do a normal start, little to no idle time is required.From what I have experienced is that coolant preheating is the most effective for reliable starting.

 

[Third From Texas]

I'm pretty sure Sean from FB added a remote start to Able. I know I've seen the video of someone who did (and I think it was Sean).

It was just one of those kit's off Amazon. Nothing that may adapt to your application, but it has been done.

 

[Third From Texas]

 

[Guruman]

I actually bought a remote start system, and I can go that route, but I'm looking at a bigger picture here.

I have an extensive home automation system with 90+ light switches, door sensors on every door, motion sensors both inside and outside, cameras with vehicle and person detection and more. All of it can be controlled from anywhere, either through a dashboard control panel, or via voice using any home assistant (Amazon Alexa, Google, Apple HomeKit, etc...) What I have in mind is eventually integrating all of the trucks systems into the system, where it will have it's own dashboard showing fluid levels, temps, switch statuses, location and whatever else I can get to work. Being able to say " Alexa, start the truck" and have the system open the shop door, fire the pre-heater for a few minutes, turn on the master power, hit the ether if needed, start the truck, notify me that it started successfully, then notify me again that it's up to temp and the cab is warm..... would be pretty cool.

An off the shelf remote start system won't do any of that. Unless.... I wonder if any could be modified to activate via a physical switch, instead of the crummy wireless remote? Then I could just use the system to command the remote start on, and have it do it's thing.

Also, remote start systems have the same limitation I'm trying to overcome. how do they know the LMTV started? I suspect tachometer signal is my only option.

 

[Guruman]

By my calculations, if you had spent that 20 minutes each day driving south you'd have resolved the issue of starting in the cold in approximately 65 days.

I don't play well with excess temperatures, or people. I'm trying my best to overcome some family obligations and get back to our remote stretch of Montana, where on a hot day, all you have to do is increase elevation until the temperature is comfortable. used to pick my fishing spots based on elevation and temperature. If it was going to be a really hot day, I'd pick a lake higher up. On cooler days, I'd fish the rivers and streams in the valleys. Texas is nice, but dang it gets hot, and there are so many people.

It's not so much people I dislike, but rather just the stupid ones. The more people you have in a area, the higher the likelihood that I'll encounter a stupid one.

 

[Ronmar]

And some trucks are a bit more finicky at starting in cold weather.

How are you going to automate this with a timer?

Your video, ya?

I would do it the same way I start cold generators remotely, with a run detector and crank limiter Basically you automate the start sequence… that was I think 27F with no preheat or ether…

with only the timer, and a 2 second crank doesn’t get r done, you drag your happy ass out in the cold and crank it manually:O

 

[coachgeo]

how about a microphone to speaker in the house as part of the set up lol. Then you hear it same as if you were sitting in the truck. you let go of remote start button same as you would sitting in her?

Guess with that in mind.... if one is thinking only cold starts will be happening at your place on the ol' homestead; then via a 7 pin trailer plug or the likes on the far end at your parking spot, along with the mic to speaker as mentioned above. On opposite end; a remote dash inside the homestead..... When you get home... just plug it up to the cab. Might as well cause; in the winter you should be plugging in your block heater anyway, so what is one more plug. If no power outlet in your park spot there for block heater .... part of the wire up would be wiring in switches used to activate your diesel coolant heater.??

 

[Guruman]

how about a microphone to speaker in the house as part of the set up lol. Then you hear it same as if you were sitting in the truck. you let go of remote start button same as you would sitting in her?

Guess with that in mind.... if one is thinking only cold starts will be happening at your place on the ol' homestead; then via a 7 pin trailer plug or the likes on the far end at your parking spot, along with the mic to speaker as mentioned above. On opposite end; a remote dash inside the homestead..... When you get home... just plug it up to the cab. Might as well cause; in the winter you should be plugging in your block heater anyway, so what is one more plug. If no power outlet in your park spot there for block heater .... part of the wire up would be wiring in switches used to activate your diesel coolant heater.??

I like how you think.

So... two things.

First;
Speaking of powering the electric block heater... I have a break away 110v power connector I'd like to use, and I'd like everything connected through it (battery maintainers, block heater, and importantly the internet connection).

I have some power line adapters, that let me transmit internet/network traffic over the a/c wiring. People use these to get an internet connection in a home where there is no network cabling, and wifi gets blocked by concrete walls, etc. This would let me get a wired-ish connection anytime the truck is plugged in. This would make it easy(er?) to implement something like your microphone idea, or video (with audio) monitoring inside the cab.

I'd probably install some automation controls to managed the block heater as I really do not need it running all the time.

Second;
I did a quick test of the start button behavior yesterday. I just mashed the big red button and kept holding it dow to see what it would do.

It started perfectly, no grinding, no drama, nothing, just started, disabled the cranking pretty much exactly when I would have normally and ran.

I'm going to give it some cold weather testing, but I think a simple timer on the start circuit will do (at least in warmer weather).

 

[87cr250r]

All of our industrial engines have a crank terminate speed. 300 RPM or so with idle set at 600. The starter can roll the engine at 200-250 rpm. Once the engine reaches 300 that indicates that it has overrun the starter. This sequence gives very good starter life with pre-engage type starters. There is also a 30 second max cranking time. Most engines allow up to 3 attempts before ending the sequence and spitting out an overcrank alarm.

 

[Guruman]

All of our industrial engines have a crank terminate speed. 300 RPM or so with idle set at 600. The starter can roll the engine at 200-250 rpm. Once the engine reaches 300 that indicates that it has overrun the starter. This sequence gives very good starter life with pre-engage type starters.

I don't suppose you have a reliable way to do exactly that on a crusty old cat 3116?

 

[87cr250r]

You might be able to use a digital panel meter with alarm output to sense engine speed. A magnetic pick-up off the ring gear is the most common source. Once speed setpoint is exceeded the alarm output opens a relay which can be used to break the start signal.

There are less expensive options, this is a Cadillac brand but just to give an idea:

Panel Meter, Freq, Rate, Total & Period Counter 6-Digit

Omega's new DPF20 Series indicators offer real flexibility for measurement of a wide range of frequency or pulse inputs, Dual Channel (A + B + Reset)

www.omega.com

 

[coachgeo]

You might be able to use a digital panel meter with alarm output to sense engine speed. A magnetic pick-up off the ring gear is the most common source. Once speed setpoint is exceeded the alarm output opens a relay which can be used to break the start signal.

There are less expensive options, this is a Cadillac brand but just to give an idea:

Panel Meter, Freq, Rate, Total & Period Counter 6-Digit

Omega's new DPF20 Series indicators offer real flexibility for measurement of a wide range of frequency or pulse inputs, Dual Channel (A + B + Reset)

www.omega.com

there is a mag pickup on the bellhouseing that creates a signal already