Roll bar

[Stan Leschert]

I seem to remember reading that the Canadian M135/M211's had some kind of rollbar.

Sorry Clinto, that was an overhead storage rack. Up here, all trucks came with a hard top, due to the winter weather. The troops got used to storing the Cam Nets up there, and usually thought that the roof would make an excellent veiwing point, while watching anything cool that was happening. It just was cheaper to build a real rack, than to keep replacing the hard tops! Smarter too!

The TM and fab details are posted at militaryvehicles.ca , under the MLVW thread. If you want I can email you the TM, and you can easily build one yourself. What a great piece of kit.


I have yet to see a wheeled vehicle aside from the Iltis that had an ROPS.

 

[Elwenil]

If it were me, I'd go with a large diameter heavy wall round DOM tubing bent in a proper tubing bender. Round tubing is much stronger than square tubing and since weight is obviously going to be an issue with a truck of this size round tubing would be stronger for the weight compared to square. Also, I don't think a rollbar is going to cut it. That much weight could easily fold over any single hoop and bracing would require a lot of redesigning to the truck. Either way you go it's not going to be easy supporting that amount of weight in a rollover situation and it will have to be mounted solidly to the truck frame. As with any rollcage, there are compromises that have to be made in the name of safety so I expect what you would end up with would look more like a fire department brush truck than a Deuce with a just a rollbar and will probably make people think more of Mad Max than of the military.

 

[pittdog]

Look guy ! if it's a M35 ..2 .. 3 .. Dont need no roll bar! Max speed is @ 45 -50 .. if you take care of it ,It'll give you @ 10- 12 MPG ! Drove em for over 20 years .... USA Ret!

 

[Unforgiven]

Yes that's a good point. But I'm not thinking about a high speed rollover on the highway. I'm planning to use the truck mainly for off-road camping with a sizeable slide-in camper. It will be slightly lifted and have a crew cab. That makes the center of gravity a bit higher than stock. My main concern is a slow speed rollover on a slope. Anyone who has been down some of the more serious 4x4 trails here in Nevada understands my concern.

I'm glad to hear you had good history with these trucks. It makes me feel better about their on-road performance. But I am trying to find answers or at least pose a thought-experiment with respect to rollover protection.

I would have started a new thread in the Modification section. But I used the search function to keep the mods happy. It turned up this thread that I decided to resurrect. My apologies for it being in the regular Deuce forum.

I understand driving slow around corners prevents flipping. My concern is having a 3,000 lb camper stuffed with gear, water, grey water, & maybe even an occasional deer or elk sitting 5 feet up in the air on a "less than optimal" mountain trail. Hence, my desire to have some form of rollover protection.

I'm quite surprised more people haven't inquired about this.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

May 6th, 2010.

Even though it IS an old thread...... I am pretty certain the reason that the deuce doesn't have a roll bar is that on low speed tactical work it would be rarely needed... Besides, any truck driver that's working the truck in a severe off road situation probably doesn't have his seat belt on and does have the cab door unlocked...
If you flip a deuce, it's gotta be "Driver Error", and you better be good at diving under the dashboard quick if you can't make it out the door. Consider the truck was designed for use in combat areas, so you're more likely gonna get shot then smushed.... IF you need an air bag, impact absorbing steering, padded dash and a rops, your mommo brought you up to live in a safe, sterile and very unreal environment, so buy a CUCV instead.
Just my worth, smile,if you flipped it, you're likely dead.....


Besides..... Lifting a deuce, like bobbing a deuce, tampers with the designers design envelope, so you are asking for trouble.... The center of gravity on a deuce loaded properly and sitting on duals isn't as bad as you think, but if you are concerned, really,get a Unimog U1300L with kofferbox and you won't have too much to worry about....

 

[Unforgiven]

If it were me, I'd go with a large diameter heavy wall round DOM tubing bent in a proper tubing bender. Round tubing is much stronger than square tubing and since weight is obviously going to be an issue with a truck of this size round tubing would be stronger for the weight compared to square.

What about a multi-loop DOM tubing attached at this radiator bracket. This radiator is going behind the cab & before the bed. Let me tell you the pics don't do it justice. This radiator bracket is massive. In fact I've ordered an air impact just to get the bolts off. I think it acted as a frame stiffener for the garbage truck. It also had the exhaust, air intake, oil reservoir, and intercooler attached to it. The thing is a monster up close.

I suspect this bracket, on its own, could support the weight of the Deuce. Maybe two hoops on the front side & two hoops on the back side of the radiator welded to this frame, in turn bolted to the truck frame, would be adequate roll over protection? All the tubes could be linked together with short bracings, leaving enough room to wiggle the radiator in & out.

Originally I was thinking of a complete external cage starting at the windshield A pillar and going all the way back to the C pillar behind a crew cab. But if a few hoops of DOM welded to the radiator bracket would accomplish a similar result ...

 

[jesusgatos]

If it were me, I'd go with a large diameter heavy wall round DOM tubing bent in a proper tubing bender. Round tubing is much stronger than square tubing and since weight is obviously going to be an issue with a truck of this size round tubing would be stronger for the weight compared to square. Also, I don't think a rollbar is going to cut it. That much weight could easily fold over any single hoop and bracing would require a lot of redesigning to the truck. Either way you go it's not going to be easy supporting that amount of weight in a rollover situation and it will have to be mounted solidly to the truck frame. As with any rollcage, there are compromises that have to be made in the name of safety so I expect what you would end up with would look more like a fire department brush truck than a Deuce with a just a rollbar and will probably make people think more of Mad Max than of the military.

I will be using round tubing for everything except the floor-level support structure. Not planning on mounting the rollcage to the frame. Want to allow the cab to float on the stock mounts. Going to focus on making a safety-capsule in the cab. If the cab separates from the chassis, so be it. My rollcage will be almost entirely contained within the cab, so it's not going to change the look of the vehicle (at least from the outside).

Look guy ! if it's a M35 ..2 .. 3 .. Dont need no roll bar! Max speed is @ 45 -50 .. if you take care of it ,It'll give you @ 10- 12 MPG ! Drove em for over 20 years .... USA Ret!

Are you joking? Nobody has ever died as a result of a rollover? Or are you saying that they are safe because you didn't ever have an accident in one?

Yes that's a good point. But I'm not thinking about a high speed rollover on the highway. I'm planning to use the truck mainly for off-road camping with a sizeable slide-in camper. It will be slightly lifted and have a crew cab. That makes the center of gravity a bit higher than stock. My main concern is a slow speed rollover on a slope. Anyone who has been down some of the more serious 4x4 trails here in Nevada understands my concern.

I understand driving slow around corners prevents flipping. My concern is having a 3,000 lb camper stuffed with gear, water, grey water, & maybe even an occasional deer or elk sitting 5 feet up in the air on a "less than optimal" mountain trail. Hence, my desire to have some form of rollover protection.

I'm quite surprised more people haven't inquired about this.

I'm 100% with you on this, right down to your concerns about the motorhome conversion and additional weight. I'm not trying to tell anybody else that they should install a rollcage in their deuce, any more than I'm going to nag people about wearing seatbelts, but I buckle-up.

 

[Jakob]

I do some fairly serious off-roading in my deuce. I'm worried about low-speed roll overs more so than "high speed".

 

[Unforgiven]

Ugggh. Next time I'm starting a new thread in the Mod/Hot Rod section. The original poster definitely put this in the wrong section.

No offense, but a CUCV is nothing more than a slightly modified Chevy Blazer. I've been driving 4x4's since I was a teenager. I know the risks and I know the proper driving technique. If I didn't feel comfortable with the Deuce I would not have bought one.

I am asking for advice from like-minded people who might be concerned about rollovers. In the UNLIKELY event that the truck rolls over it would be nice to have something keeping 20,000 pounds off the top of my skull.

If I had an extra 60 grand laying around I would buy a Unimog as you suggest.

But I have a Deuce that I would like to make just a little more safe. Proper modifications done in a correct manner enhance vehicles. Not every modification is evil. If that were true we would all still be driving Model T Fords. The truck is going to be an off-road camper. I am not invading Arizona, okay?

 

[swbradley1]

I myself have wondered about this but if I were going to get tips from how to keep that much weight off my head I would look at any bulldozer with EROPS and go from there.

I watched a show where they tested them and I believe they have to support 3 times the weight of the equipment per OSHA. I know I feel pretty safe running a dozer on a hill.

steve

 

[Jakob]

I do agree with Elwenil though, it will take on a Mad Max like appearance if a well designed ROPS is installed. You MIGHT get away with less, but do you want to chance it?

 

[Elwenil]

Unforgiven,

That radiator mount could be incorporated into a cage or roll bar design but in my opinion, I would consider it a flaw in the design. A box design is something to avoid since triangles are much stronger in all directions and any cage or chassis design revolves around the idea of triangulation. Jesusgatos' idea of making a safety "capsule" is another idea with a lot of merit. As long as the passenger area is well protected and all passenger seats and restraints are integral to the capsule, it can be a very viable option though it will reduce the interior space if it's done inside and will change a lot of the design of the interior as far as seat type and placement.

As with anything safety tends to be a lot of compromises. You take what you have and what you intend to do with it, factor in whatever emergencies or accidents that you can plan for and do what you can to prevent them or reduce the danger of injury or death from them. In most cases the safest thing to do is just stay home in bed, but that's not very fun or interesting. To some the risk is part of the fun. A relative once told me, if you aren't close to dying, you aren't really LIVING! Still some risks are foolish, especially if they involve others. Take what you have, do the best you can to drive safe and install what makes you feel safer in your truck. Just be smart about the design of rollbars and cages as a poor design and poor fabrication can be more dangerous than no protection at all.

 

[Flyingvan911]

Letting the cab pop off is a great idea. Less weight for the roll cage to deal with.

 

[emr]

..........just sayin, been wheelin deuces and such for many years, just sayin, if there is a vehicle that a roll cage is not needed then it is a deuce, and if it is needed for it to be big enough to work it will be one silly lookin thing, and it will be any way, would take alot of awesome work to make one look like it belonged and not just be in the way, because in reality it would just be in the way... my 5 cents, good luck with the idea, if some body does it would like to see it, there are some guys who are very talented in this lot,

 

[Unforgiven]

Well, I see the lack of any form of rollover protection to be a serious shortcoming for any vehicle. Right now I'm thinking something like the old triple-tube hoops that were so popular in the 80's on 4x4 trucks might be a viable design base. Do you remember those? They usually had Baja lights pointing every which way and more chrome than theoretically exists on the planet. When bolted to the frame they actually did a pretty good job of keeping the cab from crushing. It could be upscaled to the size of this truck and also act to hide that ugly garbage truck radiator that I plan to mount. Maybe a 4 or 5 tube hoop of extra thick DOM

 

[jesusgatos]

I don't understand what you're planning on doing with that radiator mount Unforgiven. Are you planning on mounting the radiator behind the cab? Why? This is the last rollcage I built. The rollcage in Mah Deuce is not going to be nearly as intrusive, but it WILL be better than nothing. Take a look at this picture. See how the hoop right behind the cab has tubes criss-crossing it? You're going to need to do something like that, or those smittybuilt-style hoops aren't going to do you much good. If you wanted to make a bed-mounted rollbar (not a bad idea), one big hoop would probably do the job if you built it right.

 

[Unforgiven]

That's another option that I'm considering. Since I'm doing a crew cab I thought about an internal cage that doubles as a frame for the crew cab. Another option was an internal cage that bolts to the frame with some kind of boots where the tubes punch through the floor (allowing the cab to float while the cage stays rigid.

The radiator comes from the garbage truck that I took a Cummins 8.3 and an Allison transmission out of. It holds basically all vital parts to the engine. The air filter, oil cooler, hydraulic lines from the crank PTO hydraulic pump, integrated transmission cooler, exhaust & muffler, turbo intercooler, and just about everything else important on the garbage truck. Even the power steering lines route through it. Since I wanted to finish the crew cab this summer I thought I would plan ahead for the engine swap next year.

At minimum I need the bigger radiator & transmission cooler. I might be able to squeeze all the other stuff elsewhere. So I'm going to mount that big radiator assembly between the back of the crew cab and the bed. I will relocate the bed further back or chop it. I haven't decided which. So, since I'm in the neighborhood of that rear-mounted radiator, I was mulling over the idea of somehow adding rollover protection there as well.

I've also considered a complete external cage. But as someone pointed out, the lack of supports at an angle and the Mad Max factor then come into play.

At minimum I will put A, B, & C pillars at least in the cab itself. I'm hoping to figure out a more robust but unobtrusive idea.

 

[jesusgatos]

You can increase the safety considerably by just building a nice internal cage. When I get my new cab back from sandblasting/paint, I've got to cut down the 900-series hardtop to fit the narrower deuce cab. Then I'll be ready to start planning/building the rollcage. This is all going to happen while the new cab is empty, before it's installed. I'll post blueprints and plenty of pictures. You'll be able to see what I'm doing, and scale-up/down as it suits you. Or do something completely different. But a rollcage is really just a game of connect-the-dots. It's got a job to do, and there's usually a 'right' answer, if you're looking at it as a design problem.

 

[army70deuce]

First off I AM NOT A ROLL CAGE EXPERT OR AN ENGINEER if there are issues with my idea than someone smarter than me, PLEASE SAY SO I don't want someone getting hurt off my ideas, that and I might do this myself.


Here's my 2 cents since I was also wondering about a rollcage. I've seen pictures of Deuces with the roof rack/basket like on the M109 RV project MilitaryTrucks.ca Website - M109 Military Truck RV Project . I think that if you mount an external cage behind the cab coming straight off the frame up between the bed and the cab and designed like the one jesusgatos did http://www.trailslesstraveled.com/content/news/tacoma_fab_update85.jpg then incorporated a roof rack over the cab it would look less mad max. The big thing is that it will have to be anchored so that if there is a roll over it doesn't just rip loose and squash the cab or flex toward the bed. I would recommend that you either do bars running back to the sides of the bed (reinforce the attach point) and at the front of the roof rack you run bars straight down near the mirrors and run them into the frame. This way you have a box around the cab with a very sturdy rear roll bar and struts to keep it from folding forward or backward. Here's a 30 second mockup done on paint. I wish I could figure out a way to get a diagonal piece across the door area, but as long as you get peices going forward and backward of the cab it shouldn't collapse. Just make sure you use really heavy tubing.

 

[chowbutt]

If you guys are truly wanting to add a roll over bar to your deuce then look to construction equipment,
like a case backhoe, built it on the inside of the cab and over the frame rails. This way it will still look like a
deuce from the outside and not the kids sand rail.