SARACEN APC info

[Stalwart]

70 gallon tank! You're kidding right? Try about 25 gallons! The Fox was killed when the MOD changed their mind and decided to go with a tracked recon vehicle. If you drive like a fool (like we all drove as teenagers) you can tip a Fox but not with casual driving.

I've driven and own all you mention and my favorite is the Scorpion, followed by the Fox. I have the most time in the Stalwart, several thousand miles and 15-20 hours of swimming time.

 

[B3.3T]

I would agree. Having owned two Foxes, they are perfectly fine while driven in a normal sense- its an armor vehicle after all. Good power, great suspension and great brakes, fun drive. Bear to work on, though.

 

[tankie88]

Opps,my mistook 21(brit) gallons approx.What happens when you have your new years eve head on (hic).Happy new year all.What speed do you take your CVRT up too stalwart?

 

[Stalwart]

We have had the Scorpion to over 60 MPH and then shut it down. I've run the Fox 65+ for a long way.

 

[tankie88]

The reason i asked is during the 80's the brit army had some cheap track made for CVRT and Cheiftain.Which used to fly into lots of bits when travelling at high speed.I doubt if it will affect you now as the tracks have probably been replaced a few times since then.Tenders used to go out to the companys for the cheapest track.Whoever could produce the cheapest track got the order.Can remember spending 2 days checking track links for the serial numbers on the links.

 

[Stalwart]

I'm on my second set of tracks, a third set is over in England being stored in a container by our supplier. I haven't had any track issues so far but you never know when Mr. Murphy will show his ugly head.

A friend of ours told us a story about 2 CVRT going cross country over there in Old Blighty and went a number of miles without any steering correction needed due to the rolling open terrain. At some point one of the vehicles attempted a slight turn and found it wasn't responding. They stopped and found that one of the tracks had left the vehicle but was nowhere in sight. The other vehicle had to go several miles to recover the thrown track . . .

I think I'll keep it under 50 from now on. Thanks for the tip and Happy New Beer!

At about 50: [media]http://homepage.mac.com/stalwart/Stuff/Toys/Scorpion2.AVI[/media]

 

[tankie88]

Like i said all the duff track was probably all weeded out way back when. I've had a track break up before on cheiftain while flat out on a german road.Lots of raining bin work and mudguards....lol.Have you ever seen the Alvis sales film for CVRT? I seen it back in the 80's never could find it again.Test drivers throwing CVRT arond a track like racing drivers.Taking of speeding.I got flashed once in germany by a civi police camera.Just down the road out pops a policeman and waves me down.I was expecting a ticket but all he wanted to do was look at the motor.He didn't believe it was powered by a jag motor.

 

[datadawg]

Who actually own a Saracen in US and likes it? I bought one in England and it's getting shipped next weekend after being fully overhauled by Baz Blacklock, who . Mine is the MK6 uparmored version. Engine, gear box, transmission were removed, all interior items were taken out and checked, fluid flywheel seal and bevel box seals replaced, brakes, belts, fluids serviced... Hopefully it will run without issues!

 

[B3.3T]

Receiving your Saracen running in good order without issues is only a fraction of the overall ownership experience. Maintaining it will be the challenge. You will need a nitrogen tank to keep the accumulators charged properly and need a full set of manuals. Especially the transmission manual to keep the gearbox adjusted properly. "Pedaling-up" only works for so long. The bands will need manually adjusted on occasion. Never leave it parked in gear. Expect some leaks. With 14 various gearboxes, the brake/steering system, and the motor, leaks are going to be there. Extra carb diaphrams and spare float valve are essential. Electric fuel pump mod is a bit plus.

 

[dmetalmiki]

Give the (thoughtless under engineered!) over? engineered sracen a wide berth.
The Stalwart's impressive over-terrain capabilities came from the fact that the 6-wheel-drive system lacked differentials, using simple bevel gears to transmit drive. A centre mounted no-spin differential allowed a certain amount of slip between the two sets of wheels on each side of the vehicle on hard surfaces, but there was no allowance for rotational speed differences between front and rear. The centre no-spin unit allowed the wheels on either side of the vehicle with most grip to drive when off-road. This had the effect of making the vehicle appear to crab (move from side to side) when negotiating muddy conditions, thus making the Stalwart a true 6-wheel-drive vehicle, with 3 wheels locked together and turning at the same speed.

However, this system caused 'wind up' in the transmission (inter-component stress) as all the wheels were forced to rotate at the same speed, which during cornering is impossible. This led to rapid wear and breakage of the bevel gear boxes if the vehicle was used on firm surfaces such as tarmac or concrete – in off-road conditions the natural 'slip' of a loose surface such as mud or gravel prevented 'wind up'.

During military use the problem of transmission 'wind up' was solved by laying out railway sleepers in a grid on flat ground and driving over them if on long road moves, this allowed the transmission to 'unwind'. Another problem with the transmission was that the vehicle was designed to be driven 'loaded'. Driving it 'unloaded' caused increased wear on the drivelines to the wheels as a result of the increased angle of mesh of the joints.

 

[datadawg]

Give the (thoughtless under engineered!) over? engineered sracen a wide berth.
The Stalwart's impressive over-terrain capabilities came from the fact that the 6-wheel-drive system lacked differentials, using simple bevel gears to transmit drive. A centre mounted no-spin differential allowed a certain amount of slip between the two sets of wheels on each side of the vehicle on hard surfaces, but there was no allowance for rotational speed differences between front and rear. The centre no-spin unit allowed the wheels on either side of the vehicle with most grip to drive when off-road. This had the effect of making the vehicle appear to crab (move from side to side) when negotiating muddy conditions, thus making the Stalwart a true 6-wheel-drive vehicle, with 3 wheels locked together and turning at the same speed.

However, this system caused 'wind up' in the transmission (inter-component stress) as all the wheels were forced to rotate at the same speed, which during cornering is impossible. This led to rapid wear and breakage of the bevel gear boxes if the vehicle was used on firm surfaces such as tarmac or concrete – in off-road conditions the natural 'slip' of a loose surface such as mud or gravel prevented 'wind up'.

Did the Saracen have a differential in the gearbox to allow slip from Left side vs. Right side of the vehicle? I know all 3 wheels on each side are locked together and rotate at same speed, but isn't there an allowance for side to side slippage? I have only driven my Saracen a couple times, maybe 12 miles in all, so I am still learning!

 

[Stalwart]

Yes it has a differential.

 

[Rhdyer]

Did the Saracen have a differential in the gearbox to allow slip from Left side vs. Right side of the vehicle? I know all 3 wheels on each side are locked together and rotate at same speed, but isn't there an allowance for side to side slippage? I have only driven my Saracen a couple times, maybe 12 miles in all, so I am still learning!

I also have a Saracen and all my manuals show a differential gear driven drive with slip left to right but solid drive front to back on each side which is why they complain about axle wind up.
But from what I can see on schematics each hub has a planetary gear set up for the gear reduction. What I was thinking was pull the center hubs and remove the small planetary gears making the center axles only load bearing but I’m still researching if that would get rid off axle wind up to a point since the axles are so close together by letting center axles free wheel. They would still be essentially non slip front to back on each side but might reduce stress on driveline and reduce axle wind up.

 

[Rhdyer]

Who actually own a Saracen in US and likes it? I bought one in England and it's getting shipped next weekend after being fully overhauled by Baz Blacklock, who . Mine is the MK6 uparmored version. Engine, gear box, transmission were removed, all interior items were taken out and checked, fluid flywheel seal and bevel box seals replaced, brakes, belts, fluids serviced... Hopefully it will run without issues!

I own a Saracen and do love it but I also love to modify vehicles. So as my previous post I’m looking at removing the small planetary gears from front or center axles but not both to reduce axle wind up. True it won’t be 6x6 H drive but I’m just trying to keep from breaking parts that are hard to get in the USA.
After I cure that problem I’m looking at installing a Cummins and Allison transmission in mine because I would rather be in a vehicle setting on a diesel tank than gasoline.