So, on a scale of "Meh" to "Dude, you're gonna die by death wobble"

[glaser06]

So, on a scale of "Meh" to "Dude, you're gonna die by death wobble"

How bad are these springs? I've been putting off getting them resprung, death wobble is back after a 3 year hiatus. Replaced bushings in the D60 then (didn't look worn) and steering stabilizer (was worn). I suspect shocks are probably gone was wondering if this was cause or effect.

Just installed a new steering stabilizer today when I saw this:

DS front leaf

Front eye of DS leaf

Front eye PS leaf for comparison

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[Takarst]

Not to bad. I've had a handful of chevy trucks and they are pretty well flat or arched like yours. I wouldn't sweat it. Your stabilizer probably helped out. Might as well just through a small lift on it anyways!

 

[The FLU farm]

Never heard of springs being responsible for a death wobble.
Nor do I understand how they could be, but that doesn't mean they couldn't. Somehow. At least it'd be as likely as that worn wiper blades would cause it, I think.

Unless...if your rear springs are unusually tall, then when combined with the lower front springs there may not be enough caster left. But since GM built these with a fairly generous caster angle you'd need almost absurdly tall rear springs.

 

[glaser06]

I more meant the DS front hangar where the spring was coming unwound....

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[glaser06]

Not to bad. I've had a handful of chevy trucks and they are pretty well flat or arched like yours. I wouldn't sweat it. Your stabilizer probably helped out. Might as well just through a small lift on it anyways!

Lift and crossover steering is the plan. K series Chevys are bad for cracking the frame around the gearbox.

Isn't that inverted spring look the way it's supposed to be? I am sure I read that somewhere when I was shopping for CUCVs and noticed they all seemed to be like that. I can't recall if I ever saw one that wasn't...

Ahaha, yeah they pretty much all look like that after a few (30+) hard years.

Never heard of springs being responsible for a death wobble.
Nor do I understand how they could be, but that doesn't mean they couldn't. Somehow. At least it'd be as likely as that worn wiper blades would cause it, I think.

Unless...if your rear springs are unusually tall, then when combined with the lower front springs there may not be enough caster left. But since GM built these with a fairly generous caster angle you'd need almost absurdly tall rear springs.

Stock rear springs.

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[Chaski]

What is your camber like? If one or both sides are leaning in you might have more kingpin woes.

Just because the kingpin bushing was ok does not mean the kingpin bearing on the bottom of the knuckle is OK.


Bad shocks can cause all sorts of woes too...

 

[glaser06]

What is your camber like? If one or both sides are leaning in you might have more kingpin woes.

Just because the kingpin bushing was ok does not mean the kingpin bearing on the bottom of the knuckle is OK.


Bad shocks can cause all sorts of woes too...

Didn't put calipers to them, but the king pins looked to be in good shape when I did the bushings 2-3 years back. Truck has 43k on it.

Shocks are most likely shot.

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[Barrman]

The open knuckle D60 has a long reputation of liking new or shimmed king pin springs on top. Have you checked or replaced them?


More than likely, your changing the steering stabilizer a few years ago just masked the problem instead of fixing it. This one is probably worn out like the last one you replaced.

Another thing to look at is your tires. One tire off round just a little on the front can throw you into death wobble land real easy.


All the above is assuming you have new tie rod ends, drag link ends and ball joints. If you haven't done them or at least a dry park check of all the steering components, you need to start there.

 

[The FLU farm]

Lift and crossover steering is the plan. K series Chevys are bad for cracking the frame around the gearbox.

Thought more about this last night, and you may have gained caster due to the springs effectively being shorter with the negative arch - if they are unusually saggy, which they don't appear to be. Either way, too much caster also leads to death wobble, with seven degrees being about the limit.

Also thought about lifted GMs and all the drawbacks that entails. You already have crossover steering on the list, so that isn't an issue, but if using lift springs with a positive arch you really should change over to front mounted shackles, too.

As others have mentioned, start with making sure that all bushings and such are in good order. With correct geometry and fresh components, a steering stabilizer shouldn't be a necessity.
Then (as also mentioned above) have your tires balanced. Not just balanced, but on a Hunter machine with Road Force variation capability. And equally important, by someone who actually knows how to operate the balancer.

 

[glaser06]

The open knuckle D60 has a long reputation of liking new or shimmed king pin springs on top. Have you checked or replaced them?


More than likely, your changing the steering stabilizer a few years ago just masked the problem instead of fixing it. This one is probably worn out like the last one you replaced.

Another thing to look at is your tires. One tire off round just a little on the front can throw you into death wobble land real easy.


All the above is assuming you have new tie rod ends, drag link ends and ball joints. If you haven't done them or at least a dry park check of all the steering components, you need to start there.

Replaced springs when I did the bushings. One was broken, forgot about that until you mentioned it.

If my tires were unbalanced, that would lead to a constant vibration at speed. I don't have that, the wobble only happens when braking or decelerating under engine load. Would be unusual for a tire to lose balance without a visible symptom such as bubbling, missing lead, broken wires or other defect so I'm skeptical of this being the issue.

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[glaser06]

Thought more about this last night, and you may have gained caster due to the springs effectively being shorter with the negative arch - if they are unusually saggy, which they don't appear to be. Either way, too much caster also leads to death wobble, with seven degrees being about the limit.

Also thought about lifted GMs and all the drawbacks that entails. You already have crossover steering on the list, so that isn't an issue, but if using lift springs with a positive arch you really should change over to front mounted shackles, too.

As others have mentioned, start with making sure that all bushings and such are in good order. With correct geometry and fresh components, a steering stabilizer shouldn't be a necessity.
Then (as also mentioned above) have your tires balanced. Not just balanced, but on a Hunter machine with Road Force variation capability. And equally important, by someone who actually knows how to operate the balancer.

The ends of the arches are 2-3" below the center of the arch. That about 5" difference from stock.... and the worst I've seen.

Ball joints, etc are original and were in good shape when last checked up on the lift.... maybe 3000 miles ago. I believe one tie rod end was suspect and changed out then.

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[snowtrac nome]

don't discount tire balance, I have seen many times where the balance comes and goes at different speeds. Some times taking a bump, a little braking, or steering to make the wobble start. Also warped rotors can initiate a wobble as brakes are applied. I would balance tires check tread fro any belt shift while on the balancer than check run out on rotors before putting every thing back together.

 

[glaser06]

Good call on the rotors, didn't think about that. I think I'll be doing those and shocks soon.

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[The FLU farm]

If my tires were unbalanced, that would lead to a constant vibration at speed. I don't have that, the wobble only happens when braking or decelerating under engine load. Would be usual for a tire to lose balance without a visible symptom such as bubbling, missing lead, broken wires or other defect so I'm skeptical of this being the issue.

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs.
In the real world, however, tires do not stay balanced all that long. And as I tried to get across above, there's balancing and then there's balancing.
For example, when getting tires and wheels as a package from Tire Rack, they come balanced on a Hunter machine, but Tire Rack uses the SmartWeight setting on their machines.When I get them delivered, I run them on the regular (more weight consuming but also more precise) setting and it makes a difference. Sometimes a big difference.
Not that I think using the SmartWeight setting when balancing CUCV tires is crucial, but it couldn't hurt to do it really right.

A few minor issues can easily add up to noticeable problems, and if you prefer to deem your tires balanced, ball joints good, etc., you may well be chasing this wobble issue for a long time.

 

[glaser06]

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs.
In the real world, however, tires do not stay balanced all that long. And as I tried to get across above, there's balancing and then there's balancing.
For example, when getting tires and wheels as a package from Tire Rack, they come balanced on a Hunter machine, but Tire Rack uses the SmartWeight setting on their machines.When I get them delivered, I run them on the regular (more weight consuming but also more precise) setting and it makes a difference. Sometimes a big difference.
Not that I think using the SmartWeight setting when balancing CUCV tires is crucial, but it couldn't hurt to do it really right.

A few minor issues can easily add up to noticeable problems, and if you prefer to deem your tires balanced, ball joints good, etc., you may well be chasing this wobble issue for a long time.

On my Fiero track car or my Mazdaspeed 3, I'd agree on the importance of balance. Those wheels undergo much more stress and turn much faster rpms. I'm more particular about my balancing and alignment in those vehicles because of that.

In a truck that hardly sees 55, has no vibration at any speed, tires are in good visually, I wouldn't pay $15/wheel to balance not to mention the time. If the shocks and brake rotors don't solve the issue, I will heed your advice but instead of balancing I will just rotate my wheels and note any changes. I appreciate your input.

I just prefer to test and verify before throwing money at an issue (ball joints did not have any movement on lift last time. Rare for them to go from zero play to completely shot in less than an oil change, esp with regular maintenance).
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[The FLU farm]

In a truck that hardly sees 55, has no vibration at any speed, tires are in good visually, I wouldn't pay $15/wheel to balance not to mention the time. If the shocks and brake rotors don't solve the issue, I will heed your advice but instead of balancing I will just rotate my wheels and note any changes. I appreciate your input.
...ball joints did not have any movement on lift last time. Rare for them to go from zero play to completely shot in less than an oil change, esp with regular maintenance).

Well, shoot, if the tires look good, they can't possibly contribute to the problem.
And I didn't realize that ball joints needed to be completely shot to cause any issues.

But maybe you luck out, and paying attention the the rotors and shocks will eliminate the wobble when you're decelerating, without using the brakes. That would just be one of many things that I don't fully understand how it could happen.

 

[snowtrac nome]

I think 30 bucks to get front tires balanced is a lot more cost effective than tossing an undetermined amount of parts at it you also now have a chance to inspect tread and rims for abnormalities. There by making your diagnosis more accurate. I have seen tire balance on one tons create death wobble as low as 15 mph, I have also seen slipped belts cause this on perfectly balanced tires.

 

[glaser06]

Well, shoot, if the tires look good, they can't possibly contribute to the problem.
And I didn't realize that ball joints needed to be completely shot to cause any issues.

But maybe you luck out, and paying attention the the rotors and shocks will eliminate the wobble when you're decelerating, without using the brakes. That would just be one of many things that I don't fully understand how it could happen.

Completely shot would be bad enough to cause any wobble, IMO. Since they are a ball and socket fixture, they failure mode is usually gradual wear. I will of course check this (big prybar, watch for any play. Use a dial gauge if unsure). Perhaps I should mention again, that there are no vibrations at all at any steady speed or while accelerating (i.e front shocks unloaded, tires at any given rpm). If there was a tire issue, why doesn't it present at the same rpm going up as it does down? There are certainly, many things about tires I don't know but I do understand mechanical systems and troubleshooting, that's why I am hesitant to take time off work and have the tires balanced. In my experience, straight line vibration accel/decel - tires. Vibration one way - suspension components. This is just where I start troubleshooting before spending money on things.

Either way, this wasn't supposed to be a pissing match. I wanted to know if the "military wrap" on my front spring coming undone was something to worry about. From the responses, it does not appear so. Thank you.

 

[snowtrac nome]

the military wrap is just a redundant system in the event the spring eye breaks I can assure you that wheel balance can cause issues with changing speeds. After many years of doing front end work I have seen this many times, also an easy way to check your spring bushings is to have to have some one move the steering wheel back and forth while you watch for movement at the spring eye. the rubbers can look good when they actually wont do their job.

 

[The FLU farm]

I have seen tire balance on one tons create death wobble as low as 15 mph, I have also seen slipped belts cause this on perfectly balanced tires.

While it's not the case here (remember, the tires look good), the easiest way I've found to explain Hunter's Road Force variation system is to picture a piece of 2x4 attached to the tread.
It wouldn't be a nice setup to drive down the road with, but with a regular balancer that 2x4 can be balanced out...on the machine.

glaser06, I can appreciate trying to troubleshoot things and not just throw new parts at something until the problem is fixed. But the one thing I'll never forget from analytical trouble shooting school is to never take anything for granted.
Do try switching tires front to rear, a no-cost operation which also allows you to clean the mounting areas (both hubs and wheels) and torque the lug nuts properly. Neither of which is likely to happen at a tire store.
It was partially due to getting tired of fixing other people's mistakes that made me get my own tire machine and balancer. That was over 20 years ago, and I doubt they'll ever pay for themselves (even though I have done a LOT of mounting and balancing) but they've saved tons of time and allowed many, many miles of vibration free driving.
Plus, the balancer is most helpful when it comes to keeping death wobble in check on my Jeep. It has many too flexible suspension connections (for max articulation) to tolerate any imbalance.