SOCOM PINZ MOD info

[B3.3T]

Good chance the 718's you see are in fact British-built models that are in wide service with all British forces. These were built in Guilford before the production was moved to South Africa after several corporate takeovers. The Land Rovers sound like the remaining Ranger RAV's(Ranger Assault Vehicle) they had been using since the early 90's.

 

[todds112]

A liitle bit off topic, In the tv series "THE UNIT" the SF guys used Pinz's and Mog's frequently in that series.

Yeah, I liked the one when they burst a radiator hose in an air-cooled Pinz.

 

[popacom]

MOVIES ; etc.

"THATS HOLLYWOOD"

popacom

 

[todds112]

There were probably only a few hundred of us that caught it.

 

[popacom]

Still no news !!!

Been pestering anyone I can to try and get info on the Pinz's at BGS still no answer on the intended fate of the group,but I have'nt given up!
As soon as the weather breaks around here I intend to get my shop in order and get crackin on this build ,been using the downtime to do research on different
areas involved with the parts that make up this "MONSTER" but have'nt gotten any drawings or intel on the HUMVEE CTIS stuff, so if anyone out there has links or info please PM me back at your earliest convenience{would be "greatly " appreciated } Well till I have new info I will return to researching.
Thanks for your help and interest.............popacom////Bill

 

[DSD277]

Popacom, I've been away from the SS forum for a while, and just came across this thread. It is indeed a 716 or 18 backbone. I've had a 710 and 712, and have had a 716 for 7 plus years. Needless to say, the inboard disc brakes were a mod, and the original swing axle diffs were locked into place.
Depending on the original manufactured year, it would have been powered by the VW 2.4 TD engine, of if made after 2002, a VW 2.5TDI engine. To tell if it was originally a 716 (4x4), or a 718 (6x6), there is a spacer between the transfercase and the the diff, the 716 have a larger spacer than the 718 ( except for some rare 716 Short ) that have a short spacer.
If you had some more close ups of some of the components, I could easily tell you what is Pinzgauer.
On fitting the 710 body on the chassis, everything is backward.... The 710/12 engine/trans are mounted on the right side of the central tube, the diesel on the left, and slant the opposite way. The cutout in the bed for the trans is also on the wrong side.... and depending on even more things, the wheelbase will be different.

Dave Dunn

 

[popacom]

Thanks for the info Dave! As I stated in earlier part of this saga ,I am not trying to keep this all Pinz.,Rather I want to expand on the Positives ,the parts I have ,and build a one of a kind unit that is my expression of my likes and dislikes. I am planning a 4.3 Vortec V-6 W/HD Built 700R4 tranny,have layed out plans for HUMVEE weapons station(Ring Mt) w/Roll over protection system and partial exo-skeleton. The HUMMER 17 Allum. 2-piece wheels and BFG.BAJA/TA's
I got from the SOCOM truck will be retained as well as the HUMMER CTIS dropgear assy's, so modding the tub to accept my power plant is "no biggy" I just been exploring what UNCLE SUGAR used the rig for as a means of plotting my own design. Been picing up parts that I intend to incorp. as I go, My friends say I "KAGINIZE" all my vehicles but I like what I like ,
know where I am coming from? Well thanks for your observations !really appreciate the input . Stay with me ,cause when the weather breaks here"IT"S ON LIKE DONKEY KONG"

Thanks!!! popacom /BILL.......KI4QQB in KY.

 

[Stan Leschert]

In regards to the original mission for such a vehicle, the need did arise in Bosnia. The HMMWV is just too wide for many remote locations that are accustomed to small trucks/cars or even horse drawn wagons. Bridges, mountain trails, tunnels, etc. just will not handle anything that wide. The Type 183 Iltis used by German, Belgian, and Canadian forces was ideal. This has also been an issue in Afghanistan. The current production Pinzgauer 716 and 718 are a good solution and in use with British Forces and limited use by Canadian and US Marines. These have disc brakes. Not sure what SOCOM attempting to gain here, but it is an interesting project.

This is why we kept our old Iltis "trucks" they were perfect for narrow streets but had blow all armor. Great for patrolling, but a deathtrap when IED's were involved.

 

[DSD277]

Bill,
I can give you some insight into some of the "oddites" of the Pinz drivetrain, and the differences between the 710/12 and the 716/18.
If you haven't found out by now, the axle outputs on the diffs are offset. The right side is about 2" in front of the left. The 716/18 diff and front drive locks are vacuum electro operated, where the 710/12 were hydraulic. The wheelbases of the 716/18 are 8" longer than the 710/12.

I've been trying to figure out what they were trying to accomplish with this mods, and the best guess I can come up with is that it is normal for a Pinz offroad to be on 3 and 2 wheels, that's real nerve racking to most people, plus the 4 wheel swing axle design would remind many of the early M151 with the way the axle tucks under on turns and when empty.

If you get a chance, I'd really would like to see pics on how those inboard brakes were mounted and fitted to the diffs.

Dave

 

[popacom]

Well Dave unlike when I started this little adventure (Failed to take any pics of the original SOCOM
truck prior to dismantling for what was salvagable) when I do get started with the build on this truck I WILL
be taking and posting pics as progress is made . I had'nt layed a tape to the wheelbase of the 716/718 chassis
as they had cut part of the undercarriage prior to me obtaining the residue . I been wondering if the torque
tube and drive shaft would interchange from the older710/712 guess I will know soon enough,and knowing
my luck they won't.LOL You say the wheelbase is 8" longer if thats the case the 4X4 716 should come in ,in
the 94" range or there abouts? Well like I said before"I AIN"T SKEERED" Please feel free with any comments
about this as I am working in the dark here!


THANKS for everyones time and interest!!!
popacom / BILL KAGIN III in KY.

 

[DSD277]

Bill, You're catching on. The 716 has a 94" WB. The 718 is 4" shorter ( +/-), and it is the difference of the length of the spacer between the diff and transfer case ( measure that and tell me). The central tube is longer on the 716/18. When I refer to 710/12 and 716/18, I am "comparing " the 1st generation gas Pinzes to the 2nd diesel models, as a family. The 710/12 driveshaft is complicated compared to the 716/18, but if you bought one, there are dealers that can have it modified/lighten . Normally, I try to steer people away from mix/matching 710/12 and 716/18 because they are trying to mismatch the gearing with the low power gas engine to get a faster truck, but they suffer elsewhere.

I'll try later to send you an link to the TD Pinz group. In the data file is a parts manual for a 716K.

Later on, I'll post some other issues you'll need to watch for on your "Frankenstein's Monster"

Dave

 

[popacom]

I guess you are the only person I have heard from that actually has a 716 Dave (I'm envious) LOL
As I am studying the differences I am wondering if the geared hub units from the HUMVEE are gonna match
out right? When I first got the SOCOM 718 chassis I did'nt realize there was any difference in the torque
tube lengths etc. and I was looking at the GASSER 710 diif specs and they looked pretty close ,now I am wondering
if this will cause issues ? any take on that? Also they (Govt. guys) cut the torque tube and drive tube in half
I have all the parts but am wondering if I will need to rework what I have or if 718 parts are available.
The info file you discussed sounds like it may prove very valuable in my situation. I was out of work today
and I took time to beat around on the net and came across a CO. :Expedition Import that has the 716/718
manuals listed ,kinda pricey but as a long time mech. I know if you are gonna work on something you have little
knowledge of you better have reference material around, no matter your ability. Well I am gonna turn
in for the nite and let all these questions float around in my little bean. I hope to hear more from all interested
party's . Till then good nite and remember " IT AIN'T OVER TILL THE FAT LADY SINGS " LOL

popacom / BILL in KY.

 

[DSD277]

Hi Bill,
Scott at Expedition Import would be the one I would send you to for parts.
Don't bother with those manuals ( also, if you think the manuals are expensive, just wait to see part prices!). Go to this yahoo group and subscribe:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/pinzgauer_td/
The part manual is in 10 sections, and is the one Scott uses, and has more up to date part numbers . I also have a few different repair manuals in different forms, I just haven't had time to go through them
Pinz owners are just as bad to think everything interchanges between the early and late models, but there are drastic differences. BUT, in your case, you can mix/match parts to get to your final end since you're not using Pinz axles, housings or portals. When you get to putting the engine in, you need to pay attention to it's placement, as the angle of the cardon shaft can be distructive to the tail of the trans and imput bearing on the transfer case.
Dave

 

[popacom]

I swear I am gonna have a nervous breakdown over this project!!! The weather here SUCKS!!!! and I am so anxious to get started,and before I can I have to get the rest of my military parts moved to my new shop and finish the shop up. Anybody know where I can get myself cloned X about 6.LOL Oh well guess I'll just have to keep plotting the whole thing til
mother nature give me a break. I been thinking about what you said about drive shaft angle,
and I think I will be OK depends on how I place powerplant when I get to that point,another
item to keep me thinking at nite . I feel certain I will triumph in the end............with a little help from my friends!!! Thanks for your interest and help.

popacom/ BILL KAGIN III

 

[DSD277]

Well Bill,
Going strictly by memory, the 710/12 cardon shaft is 16" long (+/-). the cardon shaft in the 716/18 with a manual trans is 4+" longer, and with the ZF auto box is still almost 2" longer than the 710/12 cardon shaft. Knowing that the Pinz's manual trans have a flat tail plate, I would think that the auto trans would not have a tail extension ( or not much of one) either.
On the engine, how wide is it with the alternator and all the other garbage hanging on it? Remember all the Pinzes used a slant engine design ( mounting the center line of the engine to one side of the central tube), whether it leaned to the left or right. Remember also that the driver, passenger and the engine must fit into the cab that is less than 70" wide, plus have a cover to shield the engine heat. I am right that you are still planning to use the 710M body?

I'd still like you to send me any pics you have taken to get a better handle on what SOCOM might have been thinking.... or smoking that day

Dave
dsd277@sbcglobal.net

 

[popacom]

I am for sure using the 710 body for the project, but I am not sure if I will leave the tub at stock length
yet or not. Kinda depends on how the chassis and drivetrain turns out. I have figured that I will work
out the major kinks there with the body close at hand to do strategic measurements on and approach it
in a way I will set up all the running gear and adapt the body where necessary to bring it all together.
The truck will not retain stock look in the nose area,and I have done preliminary sketches of my ideas.
Trying to fit the engine/trans combo will be the biggest issue I think I will face,as, like you mentioned Dave
"YOU HAVE TO FIT PASSENGERS AND ENGINE IN VERY NARROW CONFINES" but my initial measurements show
it to be close but doable . I really need info on the vac/electrical layout that actuates the diff locks,
front axle,etc. once I get the torque tube/ drive shaft situation resolved I plan on taking the back bone out
of the cage and addressing the issue of repair to the sub-structure,replace all the a-arm swing joints,bolt the
drop gears back in at the ball joints and set the suspension ride height and mock it in with tubes where the
springs will go in order to calculate the coilover type and length I need. I really want to dry-cycle the suspension
and get some travel figures for later when I mount the body. Then once I get coilovers mtd. I will go from there.
I want to shoot some pics of whats left of the CV shafts and try and get a positive ID on what was used.
and I hope that wo'nt be another headache . But if they did it once it can be done again!
I got some intel at work today from my boss(A fellow MV guy also) he saw my post and did a little summizing
about the origin of the SOCOM truck. And what he said made a lot of sense. The 710 body I am using came
from a guy I used to work for at a salvage yard in my home town,he also had other business's ,a trucking company,
and a towing service. One of his other indevores was supplying Special OPs mission at Fort Bragg N.C. with

vehicle requirements they had need of for training anti terrorist units They (SOCOM) would supply a list of vehicles
​

specific yrs,makes & models and he would round them up ,repair to specified levels and he would deliver them
and they would call him when done with shooting,blowing up and wrecking them all he would pick them up and
bring them back to the salvage yard he owned and we would recover any usable parts for resale. In the course
of this activity he dealt with a gentleman,ret. Marine who was the liason between he and the Govt. types at Bragg.
The liason guy told him the Govt. I.E. the Marines had a requirement for a vehicle of specific size,weight and
capabilities ,to be used in airborne special ops insertions and that the HUMMV was not in the running. The
gentleman (liason) asked him if he wanted to partner up and submit a prototype for evaluation? The two men
looked at production vehicles and arrived at the conclusion that the PINZ.drivetrain fit the bill perfectly, they purchased
a 710m Pinz. from Co. known as COLD WAR REMARKETING I believe out of Colo. anyway they pulled the body off it
and sent the body to the salvage yard I worked for and he owned. I told the manager as soon as I saw it come in
on the roll back "DO NOT CRUSH THAT IT'S MINE" I was all torn up,I had seen a Four Wheeler magazine article in 1974
(I still have the mag) about a company that was looking at importing a civy. version of the Pinz. I was in lust from that
point on,but never saw anything else about them and so when this Military Pinz. body came in some 20 + yrs
later I knew it was my destiny to do something with it . I dealt a deal for the body, and took it to my house and set it up
on stands in my back yard . I started looking up info about Pinzgauers and it became clear that I probably was
not gonna be able to resore it to original as I could'nt afford the drivetrain to go back in it. I finally decided to
be content with building a tube chassis with civy running gear and call it good. Shortly after that I got a call from
my current employer( a long time friend,ex-employer and former partner) asking me if I wanted my old job with
his now successful Defense contracting business(VIC -1&2 intercom build and rebuild is our specialty)back, I said
"DA*! SKIPPY" and I went back doing work I enjoy,well to make a long story short his Co. is located at what used to be
"Lexington Bluegrass Signal Depot," now home to a bunch of Govt contracors doing all kinds of fun work,which also
includes the SOCOM support activity,having been into military vehicles and equipment most of my life, I am kinda like a
kid in "WONKA WORLD" out there. As this has been my hobby as well as my vocation I have made a lot of contacts
in the military surplus circles,one of whom is the guy who buys a lot of what gets scrapped at this post,well he calls me
cause he knows I am working there and tells me that GL has a scrap lot he is gonna bid and wants me to go
inspect it for him,no problem! I meet the L3 guy who is gonna show me the stuff, we enter the lot ,he says everything in
that pile right there,pointing out a bunch of shot up cars and such, and LOW AND BEHOLD a flat black 6x6 Pinz.
After drying my pants leg I walked over and looked in dis belief at what was left of a Pinz 6x6 running gear&body
really could'nt make out what was or was'nt there,all kinda stuff around it and in it,but I saw enough to know
"I GOTTA HAVE IT"!!!!! I looked at the rest of the stuff in the lot jotted down some notes and was off to see the
wizard of scrap to see what it was gonna take to make me the proud owner of the MONSTER. My buddy said
he would bid it high enough to insure a better than average chance of buying the lot and I went home and started the
wait till the bid opened. I drove bye the lot where the truck was for 3 wks till he called and said it was ours .
I got up with him ,payed the amount he paid for it all and told him thanks . The following Monday I took my trailer
to work and loaded it and he came and took away all the other stuff. I then dismantled the residue and disposed
of anything that would not be reusable. It turns out that my SOCOM truck was used in the same program that was
a part of the pilot program that the 710 body came from ,the program was trying to develope what turned out to be
the vehicle that the Marines will be transporting in their new marvel the "OSPREY" . my boss said they worked on this
vehicle for a long time and that it will be culminating with the $400.000.00 a copy Growler descendant scheduled to
begin soon or may allready be started. So I think you would have to agree ,it is my "DESTINY" LOL to build
this PINZ. Till next time,Thanks for your time and your help!

popacom / BILL KAGIN III

 

[duncan]

That is one **** of an amazing story!

 

[popacom]

Hopeful

Well today is the first day the temps have looked promising in a very
LOOOOOOONNNG time,and to say I am ready for warm weather is a huge understatement !!! A couple of weeks and I may actually be able to get something done at the shop. I had a long conversation with a very knowledgeable Pinz.716/718 TD GURU last weekend that answered more than a few of my most technical questions and he was very helpful in pointing my efforts
in the right direction( THANKS DAVE!!!! for your help & interest in my quest) I
think that's what I like about this Hobby,most all the people I have had contact
with over the years have quickly offered up help on any issues I have had on projects , and I feel confident, any I may face in the future. That said
I offer a toast "TO ALL THE FINE FOLKS WHO LOVE MV's" I am getting up on my
soapbox so I will end now before I wander to far past the three finger rule.LOL
I will post the pics of the suspension arms.........soon as I sober -up .

Thanks to all! popacom / BIll

 

[popacom]

new pics

Hi all! ..........I went to my shop today with the intention of taking several pics of
the suspension components that were not included in earlier pics ,got one pic and
the camera shut down. DA^^!IT !!!! .......oh well ,the pic I did get I
hope will be showing up as an attachment. I made an attempt to give a few reference points for future comments. the callouts for heim joints are the points where the Govt. hacks destroyed 24ea.$85.00 per high strength Heim ends,luckily they
cut them in the threads not on the arms themselves and I can un-screw the stubs and
replace easy enough.#1 is where they tabbed for lower shock mounts #2 is the coilover mt tabs # 3 was for limit straps . As I stated before I think the balljoints are HUMVEE but if someone thinks differently please feel free to comment.
I am going to make yet another attempt to get pics of the steering linkage and
dropgear assy's later this week,so please stay tuned for further developments.
As always thanks for your help and support!

popacom / Bill Kagin III

 

[popacom]

more suspension pics

Well last night was the Da^^d camera, tonight its my lack of computer savvy I guess.site won't let me load any more than three pics , i guess I have to many,who
knows? anyway if I don't screw it up should be some more attachments. will try to
correct my stupidity tomorrow.

Thanks! popacom /BILL