Twin Turbo Deuce

[CCATLETT1984]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

I may be wrong, but I feel like the stock setup only "comes into its own" near the high end of the range at WOT from 2000-2500RPM. But I have never turned the fuel up enough to produce black smoke either. I don't get smoke at all in fact. In speaking with Memphis Equipment co. they advised me that making smoke for any length of time other than brief accelerations is asking for trouble. The deuce already has an unusually high compression ratio compared to regular diesels so pushing it real hard may not be such a good idea, especially if you have the old style head gaskets. I am aso concerned that if I turn up the fuel too much and lay into it at 1500RPM, I could bend a rod or something? Then there are mountains to be climbed..

Shooting soot all the way up the mountain would seem to be asking for pyro redline or worse. Having been a bit jealous of the black smoke from other people's deuces, I'd appreciate Mr. Waller's comments on this.

What compression ratio does the multi run?

I know that my 6.2L runs 21.5:1
and the 6.5TD was dropped to 19.5:1 (to allow for more boost)

 

[scooter01922]

I was guessing the smoke generated might be white, the whole unburnt diesel thing. Wonder what would happen if you did that and added an igniter at the tip of the stack, that might get interesting if you got the fuel/ air ratio just right.

 

[Jakob]

I was guessing the smoke generated might be white, the whole unburnt diesel thing. Wonder what would happen if you did that and added an igniter at the tip of the stack, that might get interesting if you got the fuel/ air ratio just right.

If you hit a flying V just right, you could land the roasted duck/goose right into the bed!

 

[WillWagner]

I was guessing the smoke generated might be white, the whole unburnt diesel thing. Wonder what would happen if you did that and added an igniter at the tip of the stack, that might get interesting if you got the fuel/ air ratio just right.

If you hit a flying V just right, you could land the roasted duck/goose right into the bed!

Could you imagine what that would taste like? EEEWWW!

 

[scooter01922]

Geez, now i gotta try this just to see if i can roast a goose before it hits the ground. Not to mention the flames would look neat at night i'm sure. Hmmmm, off to the designing board

 

[Jones]

The first turbos anybody out here played with were ex-diesel tractor pull-offs-- big and heavy, and slow responding.
I'm pretty sure one of the first advantages explored with the twin turbo set-up was the thinking that two small turbos would spool up faster than one big one on small displacement engines without a lot of exhaust gases at one's disposal.
I've had best luck going with a "C" turbo and playing with pump timing.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

Well the best setup would probably be two smaller-turbos feeding one really large one in series. So you get rid of the lag at low exhaust pressures and than you get super power at the end of line. Of course you'll need to add some ADI to the mix water-injection is good way to go. Than reduce the compression ratio from 22:1 to 18.5:1 say or what you may need to get as much air and fuel in the mix as possible. The question is life-span, the engine will make outstanding HP but for how long? you can run at 100psig probably for a 45 minute stint and spend a month rebuilding it.

I think the best way to go is to have a custom cam shaft made for the engine myself increase the safe RPM range from 2600 rpm to 2800rpm or 3000rpm even increase the fuel injectors and leave the stock turbo on it. Than wrap the intake and exhaust headers, add an inter-cooler to the turbo unit. Perhaps even for summer driving add a fuel chiller maybe water-injection with MW-50 combination and you'll probably get 30-40hp over the stock motor without much effort on the engines part. Than if that isn't enough you add all the turbos, NOS to it and watch it spit out flames from the pipes for 30seconds roach your driveline and axles before a hideous death occurs...

Remember it isn't supposed to be a fast or super powered truck, the designers didn't want the GI's to push them too hard in the field so made the truck quite before the GI"s would.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Wow

 

[OPCOM]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

<trim>
All that black smoke out of Banks and the likes engines is incomplete combustion and wasted fuel.
<trim>

OK. Both these guys the unladen M35 and the M109 (SS OK Rally) were blowing big time smoke exactly like the middle truck (in fact the majority of the smoke here is already from the M109 and the middle truck is just starting to blow smoke), and they were hauling butt up that hill, I could in no way keep up at all, mine's the last one, and does not make smoke.

So, they hauled butt according to the fuel they had turned up (much more than mine?), but the smoke is from mostly wasted fuel over and above what was being burnt to make the trucks go more quickly? I admit to 3000LBS in the bed and grossing 20K# due to the commo shelter, but that M109 is not light either, was in the lead, and there was much more at play than the ton or so of difference.

This is part of what I want to understand by way of my comment, and addresses the comment about smoke. part #1.

Now, part #2 of what I want to understand, and forgive me if I am dense:
The thing I want to understand is that when I first got the truck, the performance was strongest from 1800-2200, then leveled off, then once 2600 was hit, it started to pick up and by 2650 redline, it had a whole new set of lungs and would hit 65MPH easy.
--This is what I meant by asking if this was the point where the turbo, not intended to make more power at normal speeds, was finally beginning to spin faster and make enough boost to get the beast accelerating again. I never drive the engine at redline since I was told better, but that is the experience from before.

I am going to try to answer my own questions, you guys can correct me.
#1: the two other trucks hauled butt because the fuel was turned up. But it was turned up too much and fuel was baeing wasted, and similar performance could be had by turing it back down till most of the smoke is gone.

#2: It ws my imagination, or, for some unholy reason my engine runs better above redline, even if at great peril.

If I have answered my questiuons correctly, then my real question is this:
Finally, if excess smoke is bad, how do I keep up with those two other trucks? Turn it up till it starts to smoke a bit at hard acceleration perhaps using the range between 1800 and 2200RPM as a place to test for this?

(and no I did not notice any angry shouting)

 

[OPCOM]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

Shooting soot all the way up the mountain would seem to be asking for pyro redline or worse. Having been a bit jealous of the black smoke from other people's deuces, I'd appreciate Mr. Waller's comments on this.

as someone pointed out in an earlier post the multi's in our trucks didn't originally come with turbos. the turbo was added later on in it's life to help clean up the exhaust smoke. so in essence the motor wasn't designed for a turbo. hence the high compression ratio(party due to make it a multi)

now what happens in a non turbo multi is that you can only inject so much fuel before you get to the max EGT. so you get to a point that no more fuel can be added without adding more air. when more air is added(turbo charging) you then may add more fuel. now you can then again run this combo to a point(about 18-20psi) when you will again reach max safe egt(about 1250deg F).

so yes if you have a turbo multi you can turn the fuel up till you get 1200 on a very hard uphill pull.

now with all that said; diesel smoke is Wasted fuel. if you are making smoke then you are pouring fuel and $ out the stack. smoke is unburnt fuel. Although it seems that with some diesel or mutilfuel designs you cant get to max egt without seeing some slight smoke. but if you are smoking so bad you cant see the vehicle behind you then you have the fuel turned up to high.

now all of what I have said only applies to diesel engines. Gasoline engines respond to turbos and fueling totally differently.

Right. I am jealous of the pulling power (acceleration) really, but it seemed to come with copious smoke. So i might turn mine up a little more, but not to where it's belching like the pictures.

 

[OPCOM]

Geez, now i gotta try this just to see if i can roast a goose before it hits the ground. Not to mention the flames would look neat at night i'm sure. Hmmmm, off to the designing board

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=9175

 

[67Cougar]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

Black smoke is partially burned fuel. You can turn up the fuel and it will smoke more, but you will get more power. What you really start to loose with the smoke is efficiency. If you don't burn the fuel all the way, you don't get the maximum work out of the fuel. But you are still getting something, so you get more power with the black smoke. So if all you are looking for is power, turn it up. Just make sure that you keep the EGT's where they belong. If you want to get the bets MPG's, adjust it to where it doesn't smoke. As with everything else, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

Wow

My brother and I both agree your dual stacks and twin air coolers are very nice addition to your truck. It looks very mean and ready to take on the worst of the outdoors or MN's traffic...

Very choice truck...

Are you running 14:00x20s or 16:00x20's on it and if either one how much in travel did you lose if you went with stock suspension linkage? If not what sort of modifications did you make to it give you full travel in the rear axles.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

Shooting soot all the way up the mountain would seem to be asking for pyro redline or worse. Having been a bit jealous of the black smoke from other people's deuces, I'd appreciate Mr. Waller's comments on this.

as someone pointed out in an earlier post the multi's in our trucks didn't originally come with turbos. the turbo was added later on in it's life to help clean up the exhaust smoke. so in essence the motor wasn't designed for a turbo. hence the high compression ratio(party due to make it a multi)

now what happens in a non turbo multi is that you can only inject so much fuel before you get to the max EGT. so you get to a point that no more fuel can be added without adding more air. when more air is added(turbo charging) you then may add more fuel. now you can then again run this combo to a point(about 18-20psi) when you will again reach max safe egt(about 1250deg F).



so yes if you have a turbo multi you can turn the fuel up till you get 1200 on a very hard uphill pull.

now with all that said; diesel smoke is Wasted fuel. if you are making smoke then you are pouring fuel and $ out the stack. smoke is unburnt fuel. Although it seems that with some diesel or mutilfuel designs you cant get to max egt without seeing some slight smoke. but if you are smoking so bad you cant see the vehicle behind you then you have the fuel turned up to high.

now all of what I have said only applies to diesel engines. Gasoline engines respond to turbos and fueling totally differently.

Right. I am jealous of the pulling power (acceleration) really, but it seemed to come with copious smoke. So i might turn mine up a little more, but not to where it's belching like the pictures.

You need a bigger turbo. More fuel means more air is needed to equalize the mixture.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

Rolling Eudamondia wrote:

Are you running 14:00x20s or 16:00x20's on it and if either one how much in travel did you lose if you went with stock suspension linkage? If not what sort of modifications did you make to it give you full travel in the rear axles.

I'm running 395X85XR20s. They are a little smaller than 14:00s. I originally had 14:00s but I felt they took a lot of starch out of the original LDT engine. I'm sure the LDS engine would spin the 14:00 with no problem.

 

[Floridianson]

Could that low end performance come from when someone disconnected the FDC and did not readjust the droop screw that controls boost 1600-2000.Bottom of the page bottom line.

 

[Flea]

I think one thing to consider is "power under the curve." That is, power available at ALL rpms and not just peak HP and torque numbers.

While you can certainly blow the motor with the stock turbo, what power level, turbine RPM and CFM level is this occurring at? Shifting to two smaller turbos, or simply a more efficient compressor in place of the stock unit would gain you more power at a lower engine speed. Keep in mind boost does not equal horsepower. Boost is a measure of intake tract restriction. Thus when you have a more efficient turbo, or a ported/polished head, you gain power at a lower boost level.

My question is not "how much power can you get out of a multi," but rather "would twin turbos allow for more usable power sooner?"

No matter how you slice it, it would be great if we could figure out how to remove the engine coolant jacket from the intake manifold, throw on a good intercooler (like from an Isuzu NPR truck or similar), and see how much we can drop air intake charge temps. But the good 'ole multi just isn't going to be able to boost much with a non-intercooled turbo and a high compression ratio.

I still think that with careful planning and a little luck, 225 hp and 450-500 torque could be easily and reliably attained.

 

[jwaller]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

You need a bigger turbo. More fuel means more air is needed to equalize the mixture.

while this seems like the right idea Ihave already tried this too. it will add more power at your redline RPM but will drive like poo. when you go with a larger turbo you get more lag.

right now I get full boost by 2000rpm's(stock turbo). with the larger turbo I didn't get full boost till 2300rpms. this means that your power band gets even smaller and less useful and even though your peak #'s are better with a bigger turbo the area under the curve is terrible and most if not all the ppl here aren't willing to keep their motors at redline all day just for the extra 10-20hp that a larger turbo might give.

It also depends on how much you wanna spend. if you want to spend 2k on a ballbearing turbo then you could fix this issue as well but I highly doubt anybody here is willing to do this as you can buy complete trucks for less than that.

the very best combo I have found with respect to time, $, and proven results is to turn the fuel up and add a water injection system. you get all the power the motor will stand and don't break the bank doing it. you can search for my topics on the water injection system to find the hp gains and all the pros on that system.

 

[OPCOM]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

What compression ratio does the multi run?

I know that my 6.2L runs 21.5:1
and the 6.5TD was dropped to 19.5:1 (to allow for more boost)

It's 22:1 I think.

 

[Capt.Marion]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Twin Turbo Deuce

I'd say it'd be much safer and easier to just drop an LDS 5-ton engine in there. From SasquatchSanta's results with his transplant (repower, whatever...) and seeing that they stuffed them into 5 ton trucks, you get more power, safer, and more easily. No extra plumbing and hooking up and exhaust rerouting etc to mess up/ figure out.

But I know less than nothing about this kind of thing.