We need a unified voice

[m1010plowboy]

I'm bumping this old thread to get some current info and help with some future and permanent MV storage/display and care potential.

The point of this thread was to discuss and search for a way to organize and support the future of Historical MV owners.

Did anyone see any progress south of the 49th? Any new thoughts, business or ideas to add to the 3 year old thread?

We're stuck with a few challenges building a business plan for a virtual and potentially brick & mortar Cold War museum, climate controlled storage and multi-use facility. Our mandate is to preserve and tell the Cold War Story.....due to opportunities, we're not clear on what that looks like, yet.

It ties into the MV hobby and we need to "envision" where the MV hobby will be, ideally to perpetuity but for the foreseeable future.
What will our needs be?

Can MV hobbyists 'carry on' the way we have, for the next 50 years?

Opposition to the MV hobby north of the border is more likely if drastic changes occur in the U.S. There are rumors here though.

Government Considering Ban of Older Vehicles
The new NDP government is considering BANNING OLDER VEHICLES. Buried deep (page39) within their Climate Leadership Discussion Document is the following "requiring vehicles to maintain OEM standards for emission controls: and banning older, less efficient vehicles.

SVAA has expressed it's concerns to Dr. Andrew Leach Chair of Alberta's Climate Change Advisory Panel.

You can also express your concerns by taking their online survey at https://climateleadershipsurvey.alberta.ca/


Our local MVPA is well aligned with the military and I don't see that changing. Small groups in their local area, as part of a larger body with a common goal, statement, constitution, for the good of the community, whatever it takes...has worked.
Paddling in the same direction helps us all.

For those guys that have been in the hobby already for twenty years, what do the next twenty look like?

For the young folks that are going to be taking over our gear......do you even want it?
Would you come see it in a museum, or will our future MV enthusiasts check it out from the computer at home?

Considering your current individual views on the future, what are your plans for your collections when it's time for them to go?

 

[Durango_USMC]

m1010plowboy,

I cant answer many of your questions and bare with me as Im on a touch screen and a tiny one at that. First Id like to thank you for your efforts on a Cold War Museum. It was an incredibly influencial period of time and so often unappreciated.

Speaking as what Im hoping still qualifies on young folk... (20's). I at least want it. But for my generation museums are largely only visited for special events or homework unless its job related. And if they are visited unless theres a lot of big new exhibits a lot of times people dont go back too often. Thats just been my observation amongst my peers. I dont even get to go to museums all that often (hopefully that will be changing soon for me). Im really just now starting to go from thats cool to thats cool we need to save it for the future.

That being said I really like the idea of a cold war museum! If we had one closer Id make some time to go. I still am curious whats going to be in any museums from the time I was in.... the way things are looking, not much.

 

[Piper Cub]

I'm in the young folks category, sitting in the dorm at college right now. I know that myself and many of my friends are interested in military vehicles and the history of the military. I have friends that have some pretty impressive military collections already and are continuing to grow them. A lot of younger people out there are very absorbed in their computer games and such but there are still a lot of us who are very interested in history and preserving it. I think museums are still a great way to see things especially if its a motorized item. You can watch all the videos there are on YouTube but there's no substitute for standing by a P51 or an F4 when they hit the ignition. A similar principle applies with trucks and jeeps but on a slightly less ear shattering scale. I like to look at pictures online too, because there is such an immense amount of information available online but it's just not the same as actually seeing it in person. For some people it's probably just fine to see it online and move on, but I'd rather get to see it in person as well. I can make multiple trips to the same museum and still find something I missed before or that has been added or changed. It of course depends on the primary subject of the museum, but I always enjoy museums where you can actually climb up in the airplane, or sit in the drivers seat of the truck. That extra dimension to the experience makes it so much easier to see how things really were. You can watch all sorts of videos and pictures of ball turret gunners, but until you actually have the experience of trying to cram yourself in there it's hard to imagine how hard it was to be in there for hours at a time. That's more of a WWII focus, but I think the more modern stuff is great to be collecting now so that in the future there will be many very nice examples of what the military used.

 

[m1010plowboy]

Raising a Unified voice

Thanks for the replies guys. It's good to know there's still some youth out there digging into the tools. Private collectors may be the only people hanging on to rare military vehicles in the future because 'museums' seem to be difficult to sustain. Get yourselves some land and some big barns, instead of crushing the prized MV's, the old collectors may be giving them away.

One of our last prairie, Dewline radar bases is wanting a tenant. It would store 70+ vehicles, indoors and have room for a playing/ prooving ground. It was 418 acres so......that's good. There's a pool, still operational, a school, bowling alley, one radar dome, a few out buildings, a serviced campground and an old golf course. We're thinking MV Disneyland.......but it's 4 hours north of Havre Montana and in the middle of nowhere.

The nearest tourist draw is 2 1/2 hours away with the Drumheller dino museum netting 300,000+ visitors per year. That's a big number but the interest covers a school curriculum and a wide demographic. Girls like to hang around dinosaurs but might not have the same interest in MV's.

The "that's cool, let's save it" term kicks in because it's the last prairie radar base. There's a similar spot in the U.S.

http://www.coldwar.org/museum/index.asp

We're starting to get a great collection Cold War items and the U.S. / Canadian connection is deep. Here's a shop van with the big star on the door at one of our old bases in Kamloops B.C.



Even if we restored all the buildings, displayed 5000 sq.ft of cold war memorabilia, added 70 vehicles to display, store, wash, grease, drive.....cleaned up the campground, added a 5 star hotel / casino and called it MV Disneyland....I'm just not sure anyone would visit .......or would they?

If we don't stay unified, private RV /MV resorts may be the only place we can see or drive MV's in 20 years.

What does the MV world look like in 2035?

 

[saddamsnightmare]

September 28th, 2015.


Its going to start a firestorm, but I have seen the MVPA do very little in the states where the DMV cracked down on MV useage. Most states with more favorable laws (Texas, Illinois) it was a private individual or group working with the legislators to get the laws whipped into the forms that they have today.

If you want parade use only, go with the MVPA and join their little jeep club, deuces and five tons, better look out for yourself, but I will give many kudos to MaDeuce and the legislation here in Illinois, he is a keeper for doing that work.

 

[ARYankee]

September 28th, 2015.


Its going to start a firestorm, but I have seen the MVPA do very little in the states where the DMV cracked down on MV useage. Most states with more favorable laws (Texas, Illinois) it was a private individual or group working with the legislators to get the laws whipped into the forms that they have today.

If you want parade use only, go with the MVPA and join their little jeep club, deuces and five tons, better look out for yourself, but I will give many kudos to MaDeuce and the legislation here in Illinois, he is a keeper for doing that work.

I couldn't have said it any better. I know a few years back, I was trying to spearhead some good legislation for MVs in Arkansas. Of course I had no help from my state chapter of the MVPA. I ended up just letting it go because it was too much work for one person and I didn't have the time to dedicate to it. I look back at how it was with the local chapter and honestly I still feel it hasn't changed. Its disappointing.

 

[undysworld]

The fight over former military vehicles started years ago in Wisconsin. I got dragged into it in 2007. Tom Zat, Curt Rymkus and I are still at it. So far, we've won three appeals and have gotten passage of 3 bills into law. We didn't do it alone, and owe a lot of thanks to all the in-state owners who have rallied behind our efforts. As a result, Wisconsin now has some of the most beneficial collector laws in the nation. ($30 LIFETIME registration for non-modified former military vehicles with no payload restriction and occasional personal use any day of the year.)

As was explained to me, MVPA is reluctant to get into an individual state's affairs. Since registration of Motor Vehicles is each state's responsibility, there could be 50 different issues going on. I'm not sure how effective MVPA could be at that. Moreover, state legislators respond to their constituents only, not to some national group - they only care about in-state voters.

IMHO, these vehicles were created for use by people who were willing to fight for our country's rights. If we expect to be able to continue to use them for our own purposes, we need to be willing to fight to preserve our own rights. The same principles apply: If you aren't willing to fight for your rights, then you will lose them.

Rather than pointing at MVPA and expecting them to fix everything, each state must gather it's collectors together to support their own rights. Don't leave it to one guy, because it's too much for one person. Get involved in your state's politics, monitor bills going through the legislature, and create laws that serve your interests.

 

[undysworld]

I will toss in this afterthought. There may well be something that MVPA could do to help the individual state groups trying to defend our rights.

The national MVPA could provide a toolkit of relevant documents, laws, and court decisions which could be used to promote our cause in individual states. I speak of documents like the MILSPEC document which tied military vehicle equipment requirements directy to U.S. FMVSS requirements (and helped us reopen and eventually overturn an appeal), federal code and state statutes that can be looked at (because states often copy nearby states' laws), and the like. Rather than each group needing to research and interpret these things, it could be in a database for anyone who needed/wanted it.

 

[MaverickH1]

I'm reviving this thread. Let's get something done.

It's my opinion that we might never have a legislative or executive branch as friendly as the one we have now when it comes to this topic.

 

[Wire Fox]

I'm reviving this thread. Let's get something done.

It's my opinion that we might never have a legislative or executive branch as friendly as the one we have now when it comes to this topic.

I'm with you. There are a few too many states right now pushing restrictions.

 

[MaverickH1]

My congressman, Bob Goodlatte, is a solid R on a topic like this. He's a senior member of the House. He has open door meetings with constituents, his next one is the 2nd Tuesday of the month which will be on the 14th this month at 9 AM. I will take the Humvee to this meeting and explain the situation to him. I will contact another local guy who has 3 HMMWVs and an LMTV and see if he is interested at all in joining.

My state senators are Democrats, you'll know one of them as Hilary's VP candidate, Tim Kaine. It is highly unlikely he will be friendly in this regard.

Who has a Senator that they can approach who would likely be willing to hear about this? As much as I hate it, it would be an easy thing to add to a 2000 page bill and get passed with no issues.

What should the actual bill look like? We need all the feedback we can get, folks. Pass this around here on the forum.

 

[chickenbutt]

Looking at the post from Undysworld, it looks like Wisconsin has a good starting point that could be a model for other states. And it includes "A high-mobility multi-purpose wheeled vehicle originally manufactured for use by the U.S. military forces and commonly known by the name of "Humvee," if it is at least 22 years old."
You can find 2013 Senate Bill HERE
Quickly reading through the Wisconsin DMV codes it looks like this language was adopted.

Here is a Quote from the bill--
In addition, the Act provides that this requirement to refuse registration does not apply to the following vehicles: Former military vehicles, defined as "a vehicle, including a trailer but excluding a tracked vehicle, that was manufactured for use in any country’s military forces."
Vehicles registered as historic military vehicles, which requires that the vehicle was manufactured for use in any country’s military forces, is maintained to accurately represent its military design and markings, and is a domestic vehicle or is imported and is at least 25 years old.
Vehicles registered as special interest vehicles, which requires that either: (a) the vehicle is at least 20 years old, the vehicle’s body has not been altered from the original, and the vehicle is being preserved for its historic interest; or (b) the vehicle is a qualified Pinzgauer, Kaiser Jeep, Duck, or Humvee.

 

[kaziboku]

If possible - suggest copying the WI code. Don't like losing the capability to modify vehicles having a historic designation but a copy makes it easier to representatives to concur with the concept. Paul Underwood and Tom Zat did a great job!

 

[frank8003]

Just need a couple of Dems and Rubs to like MV equipment
How about a list of the 538 and last MV bill they voted on and which way
all this information is out there

 

[Wire Fox]

I just joined the IN MVPA. As far as they know, I'm their first member with a HMMWV....they're all very interested in seeing a newer MV alongside them, able to hit the streets. As soon as I become familiar with them, I'm going to see if I can rally their support to get HMMWVs protected in Indiana. They've proven to not be a lame duck organization, as they just recently pushed an amendment that redefined the military vehicle registration process (the law just went into affect Jan 1 this year...any HMMWV that is 25 years old gets a Historic MV registration and also doesn't have to display plates. Neat).

 

[undysworld]

Hi WireFox,

In Wis. we got statute amended such that all historic military vehicles and former military vehicles are exempted from the FMVSS Certification Label requirement [s.341.10(6), Wis. Stats.]. We also got Humvees specifically listed as eligible for Collector Vehicle registration, with exemptions from the 'stock' requirement and the payload restriction [s.341.266(1)(am)3, Wis. Stats.]. We also secured lifetime registration for $30 for all stock historic military vehicles with no payload restriction for occasional personal use (no commercial use) - HMV registration [s.341.269, Wis. Stats.].

States copy what other states have done legislatively. Take what's good from other states, and work for similar passage in your state. And remember, no matter whether your favorite old car is a '58 Studebaker, a '32 HiBoy hotrod, or a green '63 deuce & 1/2, we're all old car favorites. Don't allow yourself to be divided and thus weakened. All collectors in your state ought to view each other as their fellow enthusiasts and support everyone's hobby.

We've been in this 'fight' now almost 10 years. It takes someone/s willing to do the footwork, and it's been a lot of work. I think that's why it's hard to find someone to be that unified voice the OP wrote about. You don't necessarily need a voice, but you do need a large group of supporters to pass laws.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I just joined the IN MVPA. As far as they know, I'm their first member with a HMMWV.

Nah, Josh has one(or had one) welcome to the club!

 

[MaverickH1]

Like I said I would, I went to the local Open Door meeting with Representative Bob Goodlatte's staff member. It was myself and 10 much older people who didn't know each other. As you can imagine, health care dominated the conversation. Once the round table got to me I warned I was going to change gears and told a little bit of background on my case to the staff member. I made it clear that I understood that the DMV was a state issue, and Goodlatte being a federal congressman should have no influence on it as far as Virginia policy. However, they are making it very difficult for the Virginia citizens to purchase surplus military vehicles for any typical uses.

She agreed with me that many DMVs (or any government agency) are only used to putting a round peg in a round hole, and as soon as you hand them a square peg they throw it away as fast as possible.

I told her that the DMV attempted to use Federal regulations to restrict my ability to operate the vehicle on the road, so it IS a federal issue. I was there to see what it would take to help draft a change to federal code that would make it more clear to DMVs that military vehicles already meet federal standards and do not need further ones unless required by state code.

The conversation is just starting. I'm hoping the conversation will also happen here. If they are open to adding an amendment to federal code, I'd like to know exactly what I (we) would want it to say.

I don't know how this process works.

 

[undysworld]

Maverick,

I'm not trying to say that what you're doing isn't worthwhile, but I'll be surprised if you can change registration requirements through federal action/s. I write that, because of an email I got in 2008 from Coleman Sachs, Chief Import and Certification Division, U.S. DOT - NHTSA, in which he wrote that "registration is the responsibility" of each state.

It seems like there is some overlap of authority, as the federal govt. sells vehicles - some of which are undoubtedly sold as road-legal with an unrestricted title and intended to be registered. However, state law can still prevail to prevent registration, and any appeal would at least begin in state. Even titling is performed on the state level, so that's where your first hurdle will begin.

It seems unlikely to me that the federal govt. would want to overrule an individual state's authority on registration issues, but I could be wrong.

 

[MaverickH1]

Maverick,
I'm not trying to say that what you're doing isn't worthwhile, but I'll be surprised if you can change registration requirements through federal action/s. I write that, because of an email I got in 2008 from Coleman Sachs, Chief Import and Certification Division, U.S. DOT - NHTSA, in which he wrote that "registration is the responsibility" of each state.

It seems like there is some overlap of authority, as the federal govt. sells vehicles - some of which are undoubtedly sold as road-legal with an unrestricted title and intended to be registered. However, state law can still prevail to prevent registration, and any appeal would at least begin in state. Even titling is performed on the state level, so that's where your first hurdle will begin.

It seems unlikely to me that the federal govt. would want to overrule an individual state's authority on registration issues, but I could be wrong.

I tried to word my post so that it was clear with the 2nd to last sentence in the first paragraph. I don't expect the federal government to tell the state what to do. However, the state is trying to use federal code to tell me why the vehicle is not safe for road use. So that IS a federal issue. If federal law was worded to be more clear on this subject, that would take any federal excuse away from the Virginia DMV and they'd have to justify their position with Virginia Code instead of Federal Code. At the moment, there is nothing in Virginia Code that would back them up. Which is why I'm also working with a Virginia state congressman to give more protections in Virginia Code.

Further, states all over the country trying to use Federal Code to tell us these can never be street legal are impacting military surplus sales. That is also a Federal issue.