What could cause this EMERGENCY

[Tow4]

I think the tractor is only required to have the spring brakes on one axle.

 

[panshark]

I think that the underlying theme of everyone's grousing about the CDL is the lack of training/expertise that may be potentially communicated to the forum (and the rest of the world). The story about a sudden brake failure did reflect a driver that did not follow standard emergency stopping procedure. Admittedly, the operator was unfamiliar with his equipment.

I could care less if you go through the process of getting a CDL. What everyone else are voicing concern over is the lack of training on a big truck. The OP could have his feelings hurt by many taking his request for technical help and replying with words of "strong advice." I bet he'll take the advice as sage counsel from his peers.

You can probably get a DOT manual for CDL training for free. If your state doesn't supply one, go to my state's website, and download it. That's how I got trained up to qualify for my CDL. I paid $60 for my check ride, which was money well spent. Because I opted not to go to a professional driving school, the tester held more value for me because he reinforced what I learned in the manual (and what I learned from the guy that let me drive with him).

 

[diverman555]

I would like to know what emergency stopping procedure you could have used. Mr. Panshark Tell us and the world how you would have stopped the truck with a brake failure. A complete failure of all systems at once caused by the muffler blowing a hole in the bottom of it.

 

[paradeduty]

I understand what you are getting at there, Mark. Typical "Emergency" stopping procedures probably only apply when the "backup" or "safety" system(s) is(are) functional. When there is a catastrophic system failure such as you described, one must rely on the "hand brake" and experience. Obviously, two of the safety systems were still operational (the "automatic" emergency spring brakes and the "hand" brakes) which you used/experienced. This is a really good thread to teach/remind us all a lot about how important maintenance and check-ups are. This seems to be all the more important when we start to realize/take into account how much "disigned obsolescence" goes into much of the things made lately. Obviously - even military trucks. Plastic/Nylon (amongst other things/materials) can be tough and great in their "comfort zone" - but you take them out of their "zone" and they can be much more prone to failure. You just can't take a hammer to a plastic anything. The plastic stuff does save weight (not sure if that is important here) and maybe in some testing somewhere it does work better, and it probably costs less. Definitely more corrosion resistant with the condensation in the air systems and probably requires no special tools to work with. I am assuming it is used because it is so widely used in the commercial world. I guess we have to remember that a lot of the trucks coming out of surplus that may have the plastic stuff are getting on 25 years old or so - that is pretty old for a plastic anything usually sitting out in the sun. Might be one of the "maintenance" reasons they are letting the trucks go - just basic age and all of these "little gremlins" that they figure are going to be eating into their fleet "readiness". And again - good thread.

 

[diverman555]

I apologize up front, but some people instead of helping by maybe saying that in the cdl manual it shows how if something happens you can do this, but instead some people seem so insecure in themselves that they feel the need to attack the person asking for help. When someone asks for your knowledge do you start by telling them how stupid they are. Just in the time I have been on here several people have quit. Even other members have told me because of this problem they won't even ask or post anything. That is pretty sad. There have been many people who have told me what a great job I did in that type of emergency stopping the truck and in sharing the story. But some people feel the need to attack and try to make the person not even want to be a part of this. The Mods are great, if they have an issue they send you a pm. they don't slam you on the open forum. If you feel the need to just slam someone with nothing positive to say, mommy told you keep it to yourself. To all of you who said kind things and gave positive advise thank you for your words, to the ones that made the ugly comments keep them to yourself they didn't help, If you go back to the pictures I posted you can see the holes blown in all the lines at the same time, show me in any manual where it says what to do when that happens.
This is a 25 year old truck, it is being rebuilt and parts being replaced as we go over the truck almost daily.

 

[Warthog]

Diverman please don't take this as an attack. It is not.

You are always talking about how you have training in airplanes, race cars, etc and are taught how to respond to emergencies, etc.

You are now operating a "large" truck that can quailify as a commercial rig. Have you thought about taking a class on how to operate this big rig? Learn about emergencies?

You did a great job and where able to handle this truck when you had the major failure. But what would have happened if you where out on the interstate with a soccer mom in front of you. Just something to think about.

As you know reading manuals and and getting training are great, but they can not cover every single event.

 

[porkysplace]

This was caused by lack of a quailifed person inspecting the truck Period . You claim to be a big time nascar racer , you should know all about the importance of inspecions . There is no way they would allow a cobbled together car on the track , like a cobbled together truck on public roads .

This thread started off with a bad tone on your part, with the EMERGENCY title. When the truck is sitting in your driveway there is no EMERGENCY , unless the truck is on fire. But then I would call 911 instead of posting here. It was just a month ago you stated a thread complaining about the word HELP in the title suggestion on the word help saying it should only be used when someone is broke down . Well EMERGENCY in capitol letters should only be when someone is brokedown on the road .

 

[ARYankee]

You have a point diverman555. I thought this was a great thread and it actually helped me out. It got me to really take a look at my system and read up on it a little more. I don't like the negative comments because it does deter people from asking questions or sharing issues or events such as yours.

 

[diverman555]

Your right porky place, the truck was purchased knowing it needed lots of work and it is being completed by me.

 

[diverman555]

I can read the TM's enough to repair everything on my truck.

 

[porkysplace]

I can read the TM's enough to repair everything on my truck.

There is nothing special about working on air brakes , they are actually easier to maintain than hydraulic brakes . Big trucks , heavy equipment it's all the same .

 

[treessw]

Diverman555- Given the gravity of the situation at hand I am PERSONALLY glad that you are OK and that nothing worse happened. I feel that each situation that EVERYONE could or does encounter is a learning experience in some form or fashion. This is one way to how we learn, although not always under the best circumstances. I personally have a CDL A with no restrictions. Part of driving any truck is the inspections that we do on a daily basis. There is a lot that can go into this. There are three types to this : Pre-trip, en route and post-trip. Items inspected en route should include tires, brakes and cargo securement. Before I go any further with this, do not take this as a personal attack, I am merely looking at this from my side and arm chair quarterbacking it. I make mistakes, just like everyone else. I feel that during my inspections, I could easily overlook something like this because I am looking or thinking about something else. This very easily could have ended badly and I am thankful it did not. Sometimes true experience is something you don't get until just after you need it. Reading and learning is up to us, the users. I will be the first to admit... at times I can be complacent which sometimes I am lucky and sometimes I am not.

Thank you for taking the time to share your incident, I for one appreciate it.

 

[Warthog]

This goes out to everyone:

Please remember to keep this civil or the big hammer will be dusted off.

 

[diverman555]

Thank you

I do understand that pre inspections are very important, as I do them by a check list before I fly aircraft and race cars. I knew the muffler needed to be replaced and have gotten prices and now one being sent. I did not think a hole would blow out of the bottom and melt plastic lines, causing a complete brake failure, and I guess no one else did because no where is this type of failure in writing. I am going to make a check list for the truck once I get all completed. The thing no one has asked is why I was 2 miles from home. As this was just a check out ride to see if all the gauges and everything since I changed the Protective control box, where nothing worked. The only way to check the trans and gauge is to drive it and warm it up. That is when This happened. Thank you for your concern of my safety and I am greatful that nothing else happened. All lines have been replaced and a muffler, donuts and clamps have been ordered. Thank you for your kind words and advice.
Mark

 

[rickf]

There is nothing special about working on air brakes , they are actually easier to maintain than hydraulic brakes . Big trucks , heavy equipment it's all the same .

I have noticed over the years I have been on here that you are the first to jump on someone regardless what the situation. Is there some reason for that?
He had an emergency and perhaps it was worded incorrectly but other than that it was both informative and also asking advise. I drove a truck for years without a CDL, wasn't old enough to get one, grew up on a farm. That does not make you a bad driver. In all honesty would you have seen the air line in question? Especially if the muffler had not yet blown out? No you wouldn't and neither would anyone else. Total System Failure- That is what he said. What else did he say? He mentioned the air pressure in both the main and reserve and noted what was happening. Cognizance and control, not panic. Controlled the rig with the e-brake and the low air emergency brake. The only thing I would have done differently was to stop right there and not override the brakes. He learned something and we learned something.
You really need to stop jumping all over people.
Rick

 

[panshark]

I would like to know what emergency stopping procedure you could have used. Mr. Panshark Tell us and the world how you would have stopped the truck with a brake failure. A complete failure of all systems at once caused by the muffler blowing a hole in the bottom of it.

Gladly. But before I do, I'll just remind you that I'm responding not to fulfill a personal need to be a big man, or to put you in your place (neither of us need that) but to increase the knowledge of others. That's all. There's no emotion in my response.

If you experience a catastrophic brake failure on level ground (as I assume that Diverman had) at mile marker 2, you downshift until you are stopped. This is called a controlled stop.

If you have catastrophic brake failure going down a long, steep grade: depending on your engine's revs, maybe downshift, but you may already be revving high, so downshifting may not be possible. Flashers, horn, steer, look for a runaway ramp. In absence of runaway ramp, look for other inanimate objects to run yourself into as a first choice to running over the car you are catching up to. This is a topic related to brake fading, which is covered in CDL manual.

If you do not have the vehicle in a gear during the emergency stop, this is called an uncontrolled stop, and your stopping distance is much greater. It may take a mile and a half to stop. By the time you've arrested motion, you could be at mile marker 1/2. A mile and a half is a long distance to get a vehicle stopped.

After stopping truck due to not having brakes, activate Emergency lights, and retrieve your emergency gear (Triangles, road flares, fire extinguisher.) Exit vehicle, deploy triangles and, if necessary, road flares. Visually inspect the vehicle. This is much like your pre-trip inspection in the fact that you are inspecting the whole vehicle (looking at tires, looking underneath the vehicle for puddles, hanging parts, etc) but you are also focusing on the failed systems to determine the extent of damage and the feasibility of a roadside emergency repair.

Remember that we all shoulder a serious responsibility when we privately operate road equipment that the government has worn out and used up. As individual members of a group, we should always be on the lookout for potential hazards (i.e. liability). And sure, Diverman probably feels like the target of a witchhunt, but brakes are possibly not the biggest liability, just the most obvious. I'd be willing to bet there are many MV operators who operate with minimum coverage for a passenger vehicle on their trucks. 25k, more or less, to cover a large, heavy, antique vehicle. I think that might be a bigger threat to our sport than Diverman breaking down within sight of his driveway.

Diverman--you might share with us what your road conditions were--flat country road with 10 foot shoulders, or downtown city streets? Those circumstances often factor in to our emergency travel decisions. Thanks in advance

 

[hndrsonj]

That was a pretty informative post Panshark; everyone else stop the trash talking about other members and get back to discussing brakes!

 

[quickfarms]

Here is a very informative airbrake manual

 

[indy4x4fab]

Diverman I just had an idea while reading all your post, I would think about making a heat shield for around the muffler or tail pipe where the air lines run close to the exhaust, just to give it a little more protection in the future. Just a thought and I also want to thank you for posting detailed pictures and of what occurred during this course of events so that other will have a better idea of what to do and how they may be able to keep this from happening to them and what they should do to prevent damage or injury to them selves the truck and other motorist.

And again glad you made it threw it safe and sound.

 

[diverman555]

I got on the freeway where the entrance is 1/4 mile from my house. I was heading west because a 1 1/2 miles down is a turn around. This was a test drive because I just replaced the protective control box and before replacing it none of my gauges worked, so in order to check the trans temp and trans I went where I knew I could turn around and get back. This also was on a Saturday so the freeway was empty. As I was coming back running 50 mph in a 70 mph zone is when I first heard the low air horn. I looked at my main air gauge it was almost at zero in just a couple seconds, then I looked at the secondary and it was dropping fast and was about 30psi. As soon as I heard the low air pressure horn I lifted my foot from the pedal and put my hand on the shifter while I was looking at the main gauge, As soon as I saw the secondary gauge, I looked at the RPM to see it was at about 1100 rpm. I then down shifted to 4th gear bringing the RPM up about 400 I then reached down and lightly pulled up on the e-brake. The truck started to slow to about 35mph and was almost to my exit which is a slow downhill grade. The e-brake was slowing the truck good and the center axle was starting to lock down so I took the exit, timed my use of the e-brake so I made the light. My house was up about 1 block up on my rt side, turned onto my street with the center axle pulling the truck down, I had to keep the truck under power to pull into my drive at about 5 mph lifted my foot and pulled the e-brake up.
Trucked stopped just where I always parked it. In the original post I stated I was only about 2 miles from home, this was why. This part of the freeway also is completely flat and all westbound ramps go up. Eastbound ramps go down. I did not say most of this in my original post because the point was that a hole in the muffler caused a multiple system failure. I titled the post so people would read. What could cause this emergency. (Could cause) as in past tense. I wanted people to see that a major failure could be caused by a unreleated issue as a muffler. This is something I never would have guessed and is not shown possible in the TM's and operators manual. This was not meant to get people mad.