Why are my starter bolts coming loose??

[frank8003]

this chart

Ones whole life can depend on a cotter pin or a copper crush washer.
I am having a hard time finding copper crush gaskets part 79 on attached. I am NOT pulling the airpack/MC lines again to fix the leaks until I get new part 79. I already annealed them and tried all the tricks. DOT 5 seeps almost as good as Kroil!
It is goofy, when the truck was built they were eleven cents and now I have found only twenty at $5.95 each. I was going to get the 20 but would be unable to sell the excess


One day I will get the seeping leaks fixed!


91B2P 1969
Remember when some one else was responsible and packed your chute? Out on the highway with 7 ton of 45 year old truck, We owe it to others to watch our pins and seals.

 

[acesneights1]

Another thing to add I think anyway is having good strong matched batteries. It can't be good for starter cranking it with weak batteries.

 

[whatadeuce]

Copper crush gaskets are used on 1/4" gas pilot lines for natural gas appliances. They may have them in larger sizes too.

 

[jim9660]

DO NOT use loctite. If you do end up with broken starter bolt...you will hate life if you used loctite.

I have been working on vehicles and have built many race engines as well as worked on countless diesel engines all the way up to C15 Cat engines. I use blue loctite on everything, especially starter bolts. On the Ford Powerstrokes, the starter is mounted to an aluminum bell housing. After 1 year in an area that uses tons of salt on the roads, these bolts will break when you try and remove them due to bi-metal corrosion. If you use never seize it will speed the corrosion process. Blue loctite will coat the threads and actually prevents the corrosion. Just because the name suggests it, the fasteners are not too tight. My thoughts on why they were loose could be they weren't tight enough to begin with or the mating surface wasn't 100% clean. Diesel engines have tons of torque and it puts a lot of lateral torque on the starter. Most factory bolts also are thicker close to the head to take up the slop.

 

[frank8003]

I use blue loctite on everything, especially starter bolts. On the Ford Powerstrokes, the starter is mounted to an aluminum bell housing. After 1 year in an area that uses tons of salt on the roads, these bolts will break when you try and remove them due to bi-metal corrosion. If you use never seize it will speed the corrosion process. Blue loctite will coat the threads and actually prevents the corrosion. .

There is many flavors of Loctite for use before and after assembly. Be careful which flavor you use.

Loctite® Threadlocker Blue 242® is designed for the locking and sealing of threaded fasteners which require normal disassembly with standard hand tools. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration. Loctite® Threadlocker Blue 242® is particularly suited for applications on less active substrates such as stainless steel and plated surfaces, where disassembly is required for servicing.

Loctite® Threadlocker Red 271™ is designed for the permanent locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration. It is only removable once cured by heating up parts to 500°F (260°C).

 

[whatadeuce]

Thank you frank8003, I have kept a record of these facts...I am ready to pick up an ME005 on my M105 trailer , nopefully this week from Punta Gorda..I amy pass by..look for my M35 with bomb crane haulling an M105...

 

[bchauvette]

When ever you do threading in the machining world you have to consider the classification. It can get very intricate. The classifications range from very loose to needing a tool just to run the hardware in and out. My guess that due to over tightening and/or excessive running in or out you've lost that classification. Not to get too techie but there is a thing called harmonics. To make a short story long vibrations are at such a frequency hardware will work it self out. British carss where big for this. Tesla actually had a device smaller than a bread box he claimed could take down a building using harmonics. I believe lock tight is the answer. There are several different colors Standard assembly at the bottom and permanent at the top. With a bunch in the middle. considering the application 500 degrees to defeat the permanent lock tight in't so bad. Just don't forget you need heat it to take it apart in the future. Perhaps a label on the starter.

 

[Chunk ball]

I went out to start my M1008 tonight and heard the dreaded "bendix gear not fully engaging flywheel" sound
I have one of the big box, life time replacement starters and my first thought was great, number 3 this year. I crawled under and the two main bolts were loose…

Hey folks, new member here. I’ve had my CUCV for about half a year and had no problems up until now—starting really badly or not at all, and those two housing screws were loose. Tightened them up expecting it to fire up but now it sounds even worse when I crank.

I am just checking to see if I should go ahead and pull the starter to rebuild and test, or if there is something easier to do first.

I am pretty sure my truck has the gear reduction starter, by the way it sounds when it cranks. I’m having trouble being able to tell if it has the nose bracket part installed or not.

Thanks

 

[Sganderson]

Hey folks, new member here. I’ve had my CUCV for about half a year and had no problems up until now—starting really badly or not at all, and those two housing screws were loose. Tightened them up expecting it to fire up but now it sounds even worse when I crank.

I am just checking to see if I should go ahead and pull the starter to rebuild and test, or if there is something easier to do first.

I am pretty sure my truck has the gear reduction starter, by the way it sounds when it cranks. I’m having trouble being able to tell if it has the nose bracket part installed or not.

Thanks

I don’t know how it would happen but maybe you’ve had some shims come out?
i would probably just pull it and test it. Make sure you have new bolts and that proper rear bracket before you reinstall.
Gm starter bolts 15544950
Gear reduction starter bracket N23502557

 

[Chunk ball]

I don’t know how it would happen but maybe you’ve had some shims come out?
i would probably just pull it and test it. Make sure you have new bolts and that proper rear bracket before you reinstall.
Gm starter bolts 15544950
Gear reduction starter bracket N23502557

Thanks for the quick reply. Any tips and tricks on removal? Isn’t it only two big bolts?

 

[Mullaney]

Thanks for the quick reply. Any tips and tricks on removal? Isn’t it only two big bolts?

.
There should be a support bracket on the back of the starter too - that helps keep the back end from wiggling around under thrust at startup.

You definitely may have a shim or two or several missing from under the starter sandwiched between the bottom of the motor and the top (mounting face) of the starter.

 

[Chunk ball]

You definitely may have a shim or two or several missing from under the starter sandwiched between the bottom of the motor and the top (mounting face) of the starter.

I’m gonna pull it tonight after work. I’ll post some pictures to see what I’m workin with. I thought I read in the starter FAQs that the gear reduction starters don’t need shims?

I am pretty certain that the nose bracket was never there and that’s probably why all this happened… I’ll order one up for the reinstall

 

[Mullaney]

I’m gonna pull it tonight after work. I’ll post some pictures to see what I’m workin with. I thought I read in the starter FAQs that the gear reduction starters don’t need shims?

I am pretty certain that the nose bracket was never there and that’s probably why all this happened… I’ll order one up for the reinstall

.
I can't answer for sure about gear reduction starters and the lack of or need for shims. What I do know is that a wrong flex plate or a worn gear on that plate will cause problems. I had a guy across the street from our old building (still there, but I don't see him as often as I once did) who owned a starter and alternator repair shop.

When a troublesome starter would eventually be towed or driven to his place, he would use the same "gear blue" on the starter as you would use on a differential. That "blue" would mark the flex plate and the starter gear to get the parts into alignment. Very few starters seemed to have no shims when done that way - and his stuff lasted for a long time...

 

[DeadParrot]

My gear reduction starter didn't need any shims. Normal 'sample size of one' warnings. Before installing the starter, I sprayed the starter gear with cheap white paint. After installing, doing the paper clip test, and a test start, checked the gear. Had bare metal where you would expect and still had paint in the valley bottoms so I knew it wasn't too tight. Paint served the same purpose as the 'gear blue'.

 

[Mullaney]

My gear reduction starter didn't need any shims. Normal 'sample size of one' warnings. Before installing the starter, I sprayed the starter gear with cheap white paint. After installing, doing the paper clip test, and a test start, checked the gear. Had bare metal where you would expect and still had paint in the valley bottoms so I knew it wasn't too tight. Paint served the same purpose as the 'gear blue'.

.
Neat!! Great idea too and an old can of spraypaint (from the workbench) is a lot less than buying a can of gear blue.

 

[Chunk ball]

Update…got the starter out. One of the two solenoid screws were missing, Starter screws were mismatched, flywheel teeth got jacked up, and the cables coming from the batteries were really not lookin hot. On top of that, there was no nose bracket to stabilize the starter.

Does anyone have a pic of how the big battery cable crimp going to the solenoid connection is supposed to look?

 

[Chunk ball]

Is this where the starter bracket (that i’m missing) mounts to? it’s the only threaded hole on the block i can find near the two starter mounting holes are.

Second question, is this a trustworthy starter bracket?

 

[nyoffroad]

Is this where the starter bracket (that i’m missing) mounts to? it’s the only threaded hole on the block i can find near the two starter mounting holes are.
View attachment 851740
Second question, is this a trustworthy starter bracket?

Yes and yes if you do have a gear reduction starter. Look on that site and you'll see how to ID what you starter you have. From your pic's I'd replace that flex pate and the starter drive gear.

 

[Squibbly]

Update…got the starter out. One of the two solenoid screws were missing, Starter screws were mismatched, flywheel teeth got jacked up, and the cables coming from the batteries were really not lookin hot. On top of that, there was no nose bracket to stabilize the starter.

Does anyone have a pic of how the big battery cable crimp going to the solenoid connection is supposed to look?
View attachment 851717View attachment 851718View attachment 851719View attachment 851720

Ouch. I feel your pain. I just got done with a job like this on my own M1009.
Squibbly's M1009 Project | SteelSoldiers

There are 3 mounting points on the starter (the two big bolts and the bracket nut.) and if they all aren't in place, eventually it's going to chew up your flex plate.
It actually cracked the inspection cover on mine as well. Apparently these starters have a lot of torque. I have been told if you don't take care of it, it can crack the block.

I did the same thing with my starter. I noticed the rear bracket wasn't connected (and the batteries were 12 years old and had about 200 CCA left)), so I put in new batteries, installed the starter the correct way, and when I went to start the truck again, I got about 3 starts and then it turned into a nasty crunching noise, and then just straight spinning bendix not catching any teeth. I took down the inspection cover and looked at the flex plate and it had given up the ghost. Missing teeth, the rear of all the teeth had been chewed through.

I think the flex plate has a memory. If the starter is mounted wrong it will create a wear pattern on the flex plate to compensate for the bad installation, and when you fix it, it no longer matches the wear pattern and just chews up what thin material was left on the teeth. If you don't fix it, especially if it is loose, it'll eventually just run out of material from constantly shifting position.

My starter wasn't all shaken apart like yours is, but I ordered another one on ebay. Actually I ordered one on Amazon first but when I got it, it looked like a piece of junk so I sent it back. I ordered one of these and it works great. DELCO 27MT 24 VOLT for 6.9L CHEVROLET STARTER 10497166 REMANUFACTURED | eBay

You will also need to get that bracket and bolt, and it also looks like you are missing the heat shield for the exhaust pipe that attaches to the bellhousing.







It'll take some work to get that flex plate out. I had never done it before, but the TMs, my brother who I'd facetime with, and the members of this forum were a great help, and I got through it in about 10 days, but I'm someone who does A LOT of planning if it's something I've never done. If I had to do it again, it would probably take 1 or two days. You need a few basic tools, extensions, a torque wrench, a jack, and a tolerance to lots of rust, oil and dirt falling in your eyes and mouth (or alternatively wear glasses, and don't leave your mouth open like a mouth breathing troglodyte like me).

 

[Chunk ball]

I think the flex plate has a memory. If the starter is mounted wrong it will create a wear pattern on the flex plate to compensate for the bad installation

I agree completely, seeing what happened to my truck. All of this could have been avoided if the previous owner was privy to the correct starter mounting procedure.

Today I rotated the engine over by hand (which is easier than I expected) to see the flexplate spinning. Mine is only slightly damaged so I think I can get some more life out of it.

What I am going to try first is to get the starter bench tested at Carolina Starters and Alternators in NC(great place), clean up all these busted old cable ends, reinstall starter with the correct bracket and bolts, and give it a go.

Thanks, Squibbly, for the detailed pics. I actually realized that the cap on the end of my starter had been reassembled 180° the wrong way, so I couldn’t see how the bracket was going to line up.