Yet another blown head gasket

[mckeeranger]

Well, the home made tool worked perfectly. The heads are back on and torqued to specifications.

The biggest obstacle wasn't the oil cooler, it was the clearance around the head nuts on the front head. The stud isn't centered in the space, so the wrench wouldn't fit down on the nut. I ended up "adjusting" the thickness of the boxed-end wrench to make it fit. The rear head had plenty of room, as the studs were in the center of the space.

Now I just need to put the rest of the engine back together. I wish I had time to detail it, but I'm having to put it back together dirty and unpainted. I have tomorrow to get it together, then my next day off isn't until the parade I'm trying to make down in London KY on Oct. 9th.

A good steam bath and it will look fine.

 

[cessnatwin]

I have an area where I can see oil is building up at the back of the head, not a drip really but a slow accumulation! I have been wondering if this is the signs that you had or did it just let go? I have been keeping an eye on my situation, yet not wanting to drive it long distances just in case!

 

[RAYZER]

mine too!

 

[kastein]

Well, the home made tool worked perfectly. The heads are back on and torqued to specifications.

The biggest obstacle wasn't the oil cooler, it was the clearance around the head nuts on the front head. The stud isn't centered in the space, so the wrench wouldn't fit down on the nut. I ended up "adjusting" the thickness of the boxed-end wrench to make it fit. The rear head had plenty of room, as the studs were in the center of the space.

Now I just need to put the rest of the engine back together. I wish I had time to detail it, but I'm having to put it back together dirty and unpainted. I have tomorrow to get it together, then my next day off isn't until the parade I'm trying to make down in London KY on Oct. 9th.

A good steam bath and it will look fine.

I had the same issue but was able to work around it also. It helps if you use a paper towel and brakleen to clean all residue, dirt, etc off the threads of each head stud before reinstalling the heads, then apply clean motor oil. I was able to turn the nuts on by hand (though it did take two fingers) until they were actually in contact with the head, which gave me enough space to get the custom tool onto the nuts without any clearancing.

 

[mckeeranger]

I have an area where I can see oil is building up at the back of the head, not a drip really but a slow accumulation! I have been wondering if this is the signs that you had or did it just let go? I have been keeping an eye on my situation, yet not wanting to drive it long distances just in case!

That is how mine started, just a little seepage at the ends of each head. It actually never just opened up and poured oil, but it was getting bad enough to start greasing down the side of the truck. Actual oil loss was pretty minimal, I just didn't want the mess.

The main reason I did the head gasket change now, instead of latter in the winter, was the parade on the 9th. I didn't want to drive 2 hours, covering the side of the truck with a thin layer of oil, and ruin everyone's clothes.

 

[mckeeranger]

I had the same issue but was able to work around it also. It helps if you use a paper towel and brakleen to clean all residue, dirt, etc off the threads of each head stud before reinstalling the heads, then apply clean motor oil. I was able to turn the nuts on by hand (though it did take two fingers) until they were actually in contact with the head, which gave me enough space to get the custom tool onto the nuts without any clearancing.

That's exactly what I did, except I usually use lithium grease when I torque bolts. Valve train pre-lube works pretty good too. It's like a sticky gear oil.

NOTE: If you read ahead in this thread, you will see that clean motor oil is what is specified, and probably best. I just use the grease because it's usually more convenient.

 

[kastein]

Mine looked like this by the time I did the head gasket:





(hand for scale - about 2.5" of gasket blown out)

It first manifested as a cyclical hissing that followed engine RPM and became a loud squeaky tick at normal highway speed (~48-50mph.) One day driving along NH-13 headed north into Mont Vernon it suddenly and without warning became a deafening (even with ear protection in) banging/popping sound just before the big hill (you can still see the track in the shoulder where I pulled off the side of the road just before Secomb Rd.) The entire cab filled with smoke and diesel vapor and it was extremely unpleasant to limp it to the Mont Vernon FD, and then to a friend's place where it currently rests, with the new head gaskets in but the manifolds and turbo not yet reinstalled.

 

[stumps]

That's exactly what I did, except I usually use lithium grease when I torque bolts. Valve train pre-lube works pretty good too. It's like a sticky gear oil.

Just curious, but why do you use lithium grease, when (as far as I know) all of the references for torquing engine head bolts since the beginning of time call for clean motor oil?

Have you found some added advantage, or was it just a -- if oil is good, grease is better thing?

ASME specifications call for using clean motor oil because it produces a uniform result across all engines, and all mechanics. Lithium grease has a much better high pressure slipperiness than motor oil, so it should cause you to over torque the bolts.

-Chuck

 

[m-35tom]

all gasket sets are the same. difference would be the gasket from turbo to exhaust pipe.

no retorque with new style gaskets.

use a die to chase all threads on studs, head and manifold for easier assymbly.

tom

 

[kastein]

Wouldn't that be the gasket from turbo to exhaust manifold, not exhaust pipe? My M54A2 at least just has stainless steel band clamps holding the exhaust pipe onto the turbo.

My full set of gaskets from TNJ came with the old style gaskets (looks like fiberboard, separate fire rings.) I may be a customer of yours in a few months I fear... hope you still have some of the new style gaskets in stock then!

 

[mckeeranger]

Just curious, but why do you use lithium grease, when (as far as I know) all of the references for torquing engine head bolts since the beginning of time call for clean motor oil?

Have you found some added advantage, or was it just a -- if oil is good, grease is better thing?

ASME specifications call for using clean motor oil because it produces a uniform result across all engines, and all mechanics. Lithium grease has a much better high pressure slipperiness than motor oil, so it should cause you to over torque the bolts.

-Chuck

You are right of course.

There is no advantage that I know of, it's just more convenient in my situation. There are a lot of people regularly in and out of our shop, and they tend to walk off with certain things. WD-40, the pump oil can, certain hammers and wrenches, and I have to keep staple guns under lock and key. They tend to leave the lithium grease alone, because it's "messy".

I'm pretty confident that I'm within tolerances when I use it. In fact, where I live I'm probably closer than those that use clean motor oil. I have to drive 40 miles, to Lexington, KY, just to get my torque wrench tested, calibrated, and certified. The service manager at one of the big 3 local car dealers didn't even know you had to do that. The SM at another knows it, but they don't bother because it's "close enough".

And don't get me started on people that don't know how to use, or care for one.

Anyway, thanks for pointing that out. People need to know that motor oil is the best way to go, and I had led them astray. I did edit that post to let them know.

 

[stumps]

It would be interesting to test the lithium grease vs motor oil torques. Probably the best way is to tighten a couple of times with motor oil, and mark the final resting point of the nut, and then try again a few times with lithium grease and see what happens.

My intuition says there will be higher bolt tension with the lithium grease than with the motor oil for a given torque wrench setting, but I haven't tried it.

And, I would bet that you are right that the variation caused by use and abuse of the click type torque wrenches without recalibration is probably greater than the variation caused by the type of lubricant used on the bolts.

In any case, I wasn't trying to call you out on it, I just wanted to learn the methods to your madness, as they say.

-Chuck

 

[mckeeranger]

It would be interesting to test the lithium grease vs motor oil torques. Probably the best way is to tighten a couple of times with motor oil, and mark the final resting point of the nut, and then try again a few times with lithium grease and see what happens.

I had just the tool to do this with, but missed the opportunity. A friend of mine dropped by with a torque wrench that is used for measuring torque, not achieving it. It had a flash drive he could pull out and upload data on his computer. It was interesting to note, the torque needed to break the head nuts loose ranged from as low as 90 ft lbs. (explains the oil leak maybe?) to as high as 192 ft lbs. (probably due to friction as well as actual torque) The truck had the "old style" head gaskets that were probably never re-torqued.

In any case, I wasn't trying to call you out on it, I just wanted to learn the methods to your madness, as they say.

-Chuck

No offense taken, you are spreading good information. I figure there are people on here that are not mechanics that are trying to do their own work, and they need as much good information as possible. There are also those of us that sometimes get a little sloppy and use the wrong lubricant to torque heads, and we need reminding.

Anyway, I'm going to finish installing the injectors, and fire this puppy up.

 

[m-35tom]

after some research i found that white owl has 75 head sets with the old style gaskets for $155 each plus shipping. saturn had full sets for $120 but are all gone now.

 

[mckeeranger]

after some research i found that white owl has 75 head sets with the old style gaskets for $155 each plus shipping. saturn had full sets for $120 but are all gone now.

Is there an advantage to the old style vs the new style? I know they have the vent for the cylinder sleeve, but is that really necessary?

I would think the new style would be better, being new technology, but I noticed in the pictures of Kastein's blown gasket, it was the new style. Makes me wonder if using the new style in our truck was the right thing. I'll take oil seepage over a blow-out at the cylinder any day.

 

[kastein]

Using the new style was the right thing to do. I wish I got the new style as replacements.

Mine was subjected to EXTREMELY harsh treatment accidentally.

I drove the truck 550 miles home the weekend I bought it (Brownsville PA to Worcester MA, by way of Tremont PA) and on the pass from Pennsylvania to New York on i84 eastbound, my air compressor belt jammed into the compressor pulley, shredded itself, tore the tach drive cable in half, then jammed itself into the water pump / fan / alternator belts and shredded them too. I did not realize because my temp gauge was non functional and my idiot friend I trusted to run tail gunner in my Comanche and alert me if anything went south saw the belt chunks flying everywhere but did nothing to alert me. I drove it approximately 10-20 miles (still not really sure, and not sure I want to know) with zero water flow and no fan in 80 degree sunny weather, at 50mph. Realized what a predicament I was in when my compressed air reservoir ran low and I checked the gauges and determined the alternator was not spinning either, then pulled over. It overheated badly enough that the oil cap was forced partially off and at least 4 gallons of coolant blew out the overflow tube. I proceeded to tear my idiot friend a new one, fixed the truck on the side of the road and drove it another 180 miles home.

I am VERY lucky that I did not do more serious damage to the engine. The coolant and oil were perfect (no mixing) and the blowout only affected cylinder compression. Heads, cylinder sleeves, pistons, and valves are in great shape, turbo has absolutely no play in the bearings.

 

[m-35tom]

the new style are indeed much better, especially in controlling oil / water seepage, which had always been a major problem even on new engines. and yes you are quite lucky, had it lost more water you could easily need a new engine.

tom

 

[mckeeranger]

Using the new style was the right thing to do. I wish I got the new style as replacements.

the new style are indeed much better, especially in controlling oil / water seepage, which had always been a major problem even on new engines.
tom

Thanks Tom and Kastein, I'm hoping to leave the Leak of the Week club behind.

Here's to a dry engine:

 

[mckeeranger]

error in TM 9-2815-210-34-2-2

You know you could do some serious damage if you don't pay attention to what it says in these tech manuals.

TM 9-2815-210-34-2-2 says to torque the fuel injector holder bolts to 150-175 foot pounds!

I thought "Holy crap! you can't torque these little bolts that tight. Something's going to break."

I double checked in TM 9-2320-209-34-2-1, and sure enough...it's 150-175 INCH pounds.

See the attached pics for more information:

 

[kastein]

Speaking of injectors - related problem. My injectors all came out nice and easy except for cylinder 4 and 6. 4 came out pretty easily but 6 was heavily carbon crusted, probably from incomplete/lousy combustion resulting from compression leakage before the gasket failed catastrophically. I had to twist it back and forth pretty hard while pulling - it would barely turn at first. Think I can clean the carbon off and reuse it, or should I plan on installing a new injector? Can I get away with installing only a few new injectors (if I can find someone who will sell only a few) or should I install all new?